When Welfare Fails, This Pastor Says These People Should Starve...

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan This is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things, Dan?

Dan Beecher Good. It's, uh-

Dan McClellan Excellent ... it's, t- today

Dan Beecher we get to talk about, uh, a bad man. Uh, and on this particular episode, it's not a bad man from the Bible-

Dan McClellan No ... 'cause we f-

Dan Beecher we frequently talk about those. Uh, this is a bad man from the now times. Uh- From

Dan McClellan the internet, yeah.

Dan Beecher From, from, from the bad place, which is the internet. Uh, I guess we're on the internet, too, so it's good- It's

Dan McClellan kinda how we make our living. Well, at least, yeah ...

Dan Beecher there's good parts of the bad place, apparently. Uh, we're gonna be talking, we're gonna be taking issue with, uh, with one Joel Webbon- Mm-hmm ... who has been running his mouth, and woof- ... maybe buckle up- Yeah ... 'cause, uh, this does not go well. Yeah. All right. Well then, let's dive into Taking Issue. So our little buddy, Joel Webbon- Mm ... uh, he's a, he's a Christian nationalist. That he is. Uh, uh, overtly. That is, that is a self-applied title for him.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Uh, Christianity is a big deal for him, and he feels he has a very strong sense of what Christianity is and what it should do, what, uh, what the church believes and should believe. Uh, this is the same guy who, in clips I've seen recently, has said things like, "Women shouldn't be allowed to vote." Right. And, uh, and also women, um... We... Yeah, he's, he's got a lot to say about women. Not a fan. Not a fan. Uh, well, or he's a fan of women as long as they hush, just a shh.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "Please be quiet-" Yeah ... uh, is his, his main thing for women.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher They shouldn't be allowed to speak in public forums, or be politicians, or any of that sort of stuff.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But the clip that-

Dan McClellan And he even said that, uh, when women got the vote, that was a vote stolen from him as a man.

Dan Beecher That's right.

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher That's right.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes ...

Dan Beecher he, uh, he feels like his vote was diluted by half or something like that.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, and he's also claimed that his wife, uh, dutifully votes as he instructs her to do, but-

Dan McClellan Right ... um,

Dan Beecher he's not in the booth with her. We don't know what she's doing. Anywho, uh, Joel, uh, th- that's not what we're talking about this time.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher This time Joel had a, a, an interesting thing to say. Do you wanna, do you wanna read us some of-

Dan McClellan Yeah, so- ...

Dan Beecher some of his clips?

Dan McClellan He, he has a, uh, this Right Response Ministry, and he does, I don't know if they're podcasts or just shows or whatever, but he records himself saying inflammatory things so he can get attention.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher And we're giving him that.

Dan McClellan But, uh, there, there's about a 60-something second clip of him saying the following. Uh, "If we ever come to a point where the state is not actually able to meet the physical needs of those who are impoverished in our society today, then the church will be up against a Herculean task." And right off the bat, I just wanna point out, this would seem to acknowledge that taking care of the poor is something the church is not up to. Not equipped for,

Dan Beecher right.

Dan McClellan Not equipped for. And this seems to recognize that that is the appropriate purview of the state- Right ... which conflicts with so many Christian nationalists' arguments about how, "No, Jesus was only talking about individual responsibility to take care of the poor."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "When it comes to state responsibility, that's not on, uh, that's on the church. That's not on the government."

Dan Beecher And they talk about that constantly, that it is the church's, the, the... Yeah, "Don't use my tax dollars to, to take care of the poor- Yeah ... and, and the, the needy and the sick- Yeah ... or whatever. Use... That, that's the church's job."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then the second you, like-

Dan McClellan So tithing dollars are supposed to do it? You... They're not doing it.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Well, and the second you say, "Okay, then church do it," he says, "Well, they can't."

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, so, so anyway, go on with, with what he- Yes ... what he has to say.

Dan McClellan "But one thing that the church has to do is tell modern feminist pagan women 'no'. They have to say no. So if there's a woman who is elderly, but she chose by her own volition because she hates the patriarchy and she hates Christ, she hates traditional marriage, all these different things. She's 65 years old with blue or purple hair. She has no children, not because she couldn't conceive, but because she was on SSRIs- ... and birth control her entire life of her own volition. If that time ever comes, and she is unemployable, and she made bad financial decisions, she's fallen on hard times, our bloated welfare state is no longer operational, then the church needs to be able to look at her and say, 'You starve.' You starve. Glory be to God, you starve."

Dan Beecher Which is the worst possible version of, "Free at last, free at last." "Great God, oh, thank God Almighty, I'm free at last." Uh- Yeah ... yikes. Yikes.

Dan McClellan Yeah, indeed ...

Dan Beecher just the scariest, the weird... Like, first of all, I like that he has painted this picture of a, quote, "elderly"... Look, people, I don't know how young Joel Webbon is. He's younger than I am, but 65 is not elderly. Can we agree that if she's 65, she is not elderly? But he, but as, this 65-year-old purple-haired lady- Uh, who has no kids, which is apparently a huge, hugely offensive thing to him.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, he's not okay with that at all.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher He is willing to let her starve.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Which is, which is bizarre 'cause, like, he never talks about men in this way.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan It's always got- Because he, and, and he starts it off by, by targeting feminist pagan women. And when, when he says pagan, he doesn't mean, like, Wicca women. He doesn't- No ... he doesn't mean-

Dan Beecher You're right ...

Dan McClellan actual pagans. He means atheist, agnostics, the nuns, people who are just not interested in his brand of Christianity.

Dan Beecher Yeah, I'm guessing that he would apply the word pagan to a Hindu or a Buddhist or whatever.

Dan McClellan Well, yeah, yeah, 100%. Um, but it's, it's just somebody who's not his brand of Christianity because if you're not doing it right, then you're doing it pagan.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, because everything is religion, and therefore, anything that is not my Christianity is, is pagan. But yeah, uh, this is, like, you can just tell he has this seething hatred for, for women who have blue or purple hair- Yeah ... and who are, who are childless, uh, because they have chosen to be childless, and who are not married, and, and all of this stuff. Like, nothing, nothing gets under his skin more than a woman with agency.

Dan Beecher Right, yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, like, that just, that will not, this aggression will not stand- ... in Joel Webbon's, uh, world. Uh, and-

Dan Beecher What's am-

Dan McClellan Go ahead ...

Dan Beecher what's amazing to me is that he... Like, I mean, we're gonna get to this. You're on your way to this. But the fact that he is willing to say this, he, you know, he calls up the image of the least palatable human he can imagine.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I'm amazed he didn't make her trans or whatever. But he calls up the, this image of this woman for whom he has nothing but disdain, but then he makes an argument that can, that must therefore then be applied to a bunch of other groups of people for whom he has less and less disdain. Yeah. And he has set up a system where he has to draw a line somewhere.

Dan McClellan Yeah, 'cause who, who... Like, what color... If, if she's got dark hair and she's only in her 40s- Right ... and she's been on SSRIs and birth control and is childless, does she starve? If it's a dude- Right ... does he starve? Like, uh, where do you draw the line?

Dan Beecher If the hair is purple but she did have kids. Yeah.

Dan McClellan She's a single mother maybe.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, does... And yeah, it is ridiculous, but the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear this is the parable of the Good Samaritan- Yeah ... and the, the, the story of, you know, the... Jesus says the two great commandments, love God and love your neighbor, and then the lawyer sneers, "Who is my neighbor?" And, and Jesus doesn't say everybody's your neighbor, but Jesus says, "Let me tell you this story about a Samaritan who went out of his way to help an Israelite who had fallen on hard times."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And who was treating someone like a neighbor? Was it the, the Levite and the others who walked by on the other side of the road? Is

Dan Beecher it

Dan McClellan not my-

Dan Beecher Was it Joel Webbon who said, "Ick," and crossed the street? Yeah,

Dan McClellan not my monkeys, not my circus.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, or is it the Samaritan, the person you hate? And the, and it was very specific, the reason that Jesus chose to talk about the Samaritan according to the narrative, and that's because the Samaritans were hated. They were loathed- Right ... by the, the folks of that day, at least within the universe that the author of the Gospels is, is constructing. And so, like, if you wanted Joel to paint his picture of his Samaritan, it would be a 65-year-old blue-haired single lady.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Like, that, that... If Jesus came down and, m- and was like, "Joel, dude, let me tell you a story about a 65-year-old blue-haired lady who didn't have any kids and fell on hard times," like, that's the Samaritan.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and Joel is like, "Nah, they get to starve. Glory to God- Well ... they're gonna starve."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this, and so this flagrantly violates the, the, the entire reason for the parable of the Good Samaritan. Like, Jesus is like, "Love your neighbor," and Joel Webbon's like, "I hope they starve."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan He's, he's, uh, "I don't care who my neighbor is. I just hope they starve, 'cause no, I'm not doing that."

Dan Beecher It's not my fault that she fell on, that she made bad financial decisions- Right ... and fell on hard times. Which-

Dan McClellan Which- ... is the exact same way that the people who walked by the injured Israelite rationalized away why they were not gonna- Right ... uh, do it, too.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan I got-

Dan Beecher It's, it's a kind of... It's pretty astounding, uh, the, the Christian nationalist ethic has really become w- only us. Only us. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah, to the exclusion of some of the central themes of the New Testament. And, and I was thinking about this. It's really an interesting... It's, it's another display of credibility enhancing displays, because what you're doing is you're actually taking something that is a central identity marker and you're saying, "I care so much about us that I'm gonna violate one of our central identity markers in the interest of us."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So it's a way to... I- it's going above and beyond saying the, the identity markers are central, and I'm, I'm willing to go out of my way to show how committed I am. He's saying, "I'm willing to go out of my way to show how committed I am to the identity politics that I'm willing to entirely sever one of the central identity markers and throw it out the window. That's how much I care about our identity." Over and against the foundation of the identity, which is supposed to be following Jesus, who explicitly said you're supposed to love everybody.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Although, I will say, so I thought to myself, w- I sh- I want to try to steel man his argument. I want to try to figure out if I could bi- construct a biblical argument that agrees with Joel Webbon.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher I didn't do a great job. I gotta say, it's hard. Um- Yeah ... I found some stuff like, for instance, um, Galatians 6:10 says, "Let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So to me, that, you know, that was, uh, the clearest one where it was just like we prioritize our own people- Yeah ... sort of thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But it, it does start with the good of all. Like, that's- Yeah ... what it starts with, and presumably blue-haired old ladies count- ... in all.

Dan McClellan Yeah. But, and this is, and you know, you, you kinda have to go to the Hebrew Bible if you wanna try to find examples of, or try to find rationalizations for ignoring certain folks. Unfortunately, even there you're gonna get excoriated by the loudest voices, because we've talked about the, uh, the prophetic critique many times in the past, and this is kind of a perfect example of the prophetic critique, which is saying, "I hate your new moons and your Sabbaths. I, I do not delight in the blood of, of bulls," and all this stuff. Uh, and, and the whole idea is when you put your piety on display, but are neglecting the poor, and the needy, and the orphan, and the widow, and the oppressed, and the foreigner, your demonstration of piety becomes sinful- Right ... and I hate it.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this is a textbook example. And he even includes, "You starve. Glory to God. You starve."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's like, he's like, "What would be the best way for me to put on, put on display the fact that I'm going to oppress the poor and the needy, while also publicly putting my piety on display so other people can take note of how pious I am?" Yeah. Like, I, it's, it is a, uh, it is the antithes- uh, it's, yeah, the, the antithesis of- Antithesis, yeah ... yeah, the antithesis of the prophetic critique sandwich. Like, you have, you have just put it on a plate and are serving it up. This is what that's talking about.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, because the-

Dan Beecher I mean, even if she, as he put it, hates Christ- Yeah ... which by the way, no. But we-

Dan McClellan It's always his prerogative to declare that, and-

Dan Beecher Right, right ...

Dan McClellan and like, uh, oh, I guarantee you he thinks I hate Christ.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. There's, yeah, about half of the believers in, in our country he believes hates, hate Christ.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher 'Cause-

Dan McClellan And I'm a pagan, surely.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. Th- yeah, d- don't even get into what I am. I'm, I think, I think he might see me as a 65-year-old purple-haired lady. I'm not sure. But, but yeah, I mean, it's just, it's... There's something... Even, you know, what if she was a member of the church- Mm-hmm ... but she was liberal.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And she, and, and, you know, and she disagreed with his theology, and she disagreed with hi- but she believed in Jesus. Mm-hmm. Where, uh, w- where is his line being drawn? Who gets, who gets to get food, and who doesn't?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And also, does he not see that... He must see it. He must be- Like, o- obviously a lot of this is to get clicks. It's not- Yeah ... it's not about a theology. It's about, it's about making money online or something. Mm-hmm. But, like, everyone should know that if you say, "You starve," to anyone ever for any reason, you're a monster. Yeah. Like, there's just no way around that. There's no way that, that you can look at another human who's asking, you know, who, who's asking for food and, uh, and then say, "Nope, not you." Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and to even make a point of it.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, "I, I would like to put my foot down on the fact that I would like these people to starve." I, 'cause, like, this, this is, this is kinda mental masturbation for, for Joel, I'm sure, to be like, "Ooh, I wanna watch her starve."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan 'Cause, 'cause he's just coming out and just imagining this scenario where he gets to repeat three times, "You starve, you starve, you starve," to this hypothetical, this persona that obviously just engenders just a boundless loathing, uh, in, in his heart, which is, um, which is really just... It's unfathomable for s- for someone who, who wants to get the best out of what's in the Bible and, and actually try to listen to, again, the voices that are loudest. Both in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament, the loudest voices are the ones that cry for justice. And this is not justice. This is vengeance.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan This is about getting yours and seeing other people suffer because they disagree with you about- It- ... the right way to live the, their life.

Dan Beecher And it can't be about justice, because he never claims that this woman did anything bad.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher He never claims that there's any, other than, like, not having children, there's no offense here. There's no, there's, she's committed no sin. She has committed no crimes.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher She has just, uh, she's, she's just tried to treat her depression- And, uh, and also, uh, tried to make sure that she doesn't have kids that she doesn't want. Which, can I just say, if you don't want kids, please don't have kids.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's fine. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Uh, it's, it's bad for everybody when people do that. Um, getting back to the, to the steel manning of his argument- Mm-hmm ... I did wanna point out that, uh, 1 Timothy does have a, uh, an actual church welfare policy that, uh, that is exclusionary. You get, it gets into a whole thing about widows and who is and isn't going to count as a widow.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher I thought that was interesting.

Dan McClellan Well, you're, you're talking about 3:10, right?

Dan Beecher Uh, this is... N- no, this is 1 Timothy 5, I think. Uh, verse 16- Right,

Dan McClellan where is it? ...

Dan Beecher says, "Let, let the church not be burdened so that it can assist those who are real widows."

Dan McClellan Yeah, widows on the list. Oh, yeah, that, no, da, da, da, fa, fa, fa, fa. What is it?

Dan Beecher It's, it's just got some, uh, some ele- like, you know, it, young widows don't count. You gotta make room for the, for the old widows- Yeah ... uh, who are real widows. Oh,

Dan McClellan yeah, we, we talked about this, this passage. I w- I was thinking of something else. I was, um... it's not 1 Timothy 3:10, but I w- I was thinking of the, uh, those who, "Who do not work shall not eat"-

Dan Beecher Oh, right ...

Dan McClellan passage- Yeah ... which, which we've also talked about before, which is actually talking about, likely is, is talking about people who are suggesting that they are doing service for the church, therefore they shouldn't have to have a day job. Um, they should- Right ... be able to coast on the, the service to the church. Uh, yeah, you're, you're talking about the, the idea that, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yours is- ...

Dan McClellan widows have to be a certain age so that their family's no longer able to take care of them, and then they have to... They're on the registry or the list and, and, um-

Dan Beecher Right, and that there does seem to be a hierarchy where it's like, uh, uh, in 1 Timothy 5:8, uh, there's a whole thing about, uh, if you fail to provide for your own household, uh, then you've denied the faith or whatever. So- Yes ... so, like, your f- your household is first. Your household... So, like, that kind of indicates that, like, you're only responsible for your people-ish, sort of.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But then it's like, but come on. Like, the rest of the Bible is also there.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And also, like, you know, just being a human is a thing. Yeah,

Dan McClellan and, and the, the author also says that if you have widows in your family, you're the first line of defense. You- Yeah ... assist them so that the church is not burdened. And this lines up with a lot of, of policies today for Christian congregations and institutions that will say, "Okay, if you need help, then the first thing you need to do is go ask family. And only if you have none or family cannot help you, then you come to us, and, and we'll see what we can do."

Dan Beecher It does... You know, that... You just reminded me of a clip that I saw just today. Uh, it w- you know, we've talked about Dave Ramsey before on the show.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And it was a Dave Ramsey clip. He's a financial... He's a Christian financial advisor.

Dan McClellan Well, everybody's a Christian now. Whether, whether they were in the past, that's where the money is, is-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan uh, is advocating for Christian themes.

Dan Beecher It's, which is why I don't have a lot of money. Um, but, uh, but he... So he had a caller come in, and, you know, the, the person who was posting this clip called it the most boomer moment ever. S- apologies to our boomer listeners. But it was basically this woman called in and said, "Hey, I have, I, I have a lot of money, uh, and I don't want to give it to my daughters as an inheritance because they went away to school and became socialists. And I don't want to reward them for that." And I just thought to myself, "Uh, s- uh..." And, and, of course, Dave Ramsey laughed and laughed about this and was like, "Yeah, you don't owe them anything if they're gonna be like that. Uh, the, you know, you can just say that they have to be responsible stewards of the money, and they're not going to be 'cause they believe in giving it away and- ... a free ride and all of this stuff." And it was just... I j- I just feel like there's this weird thread among conservative Christians of what's mine is mine that, that feels completely counter to what I read when I read Jesus, when I read- Yeah ... I... It's, it's so weird.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, as, as we've seen, we, we have a lot of folks who will say, "Oh, when it says the meek shall inherit the earth, that means you have to be an absolute monster- ... but just restrain yourself- Right ... until, until you get to let the monster out."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, yeah, that's... Ooh, there's, there's so many attempts on the part of phenomenally selfish people to try to overturn what's going on, uh, most likely in these passages because really their concern is looking out for themselves. And they see things like Christianity as a means to an end rather than something that's supposed to change them in ways they don't like, uh, in ways that are not as helpful for them. And th- there's an argument that I, I'm sure you've seen it, uh, at some point, where people say, "If, if Christianity were manmade, why does it go against all of man's desires?" It's like we, we see Christianity being leveraged precisely to slake man's desires-

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah ...

Dan McClellan uh, every single day. So no, that ar- that argument does not work. And it's, it's a, it's a very easy little flip to switch. Slit, flip I'm gonna get this one of these days. Switch to flip, uh, to just say, "Oh, well, maybe meek actually means you're an utter monster-

Dan Beecher Uh-huh

Dan McClellan ... you just have control of it." All right, there we go. Now I'm into it. I'm digging it. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Thank goodness I figured out what that, what, what that actually means.

Dan McClellan Yes. So it actually doesn't-

Dan Beecher Me, Jordan, Jordan Peterson with no training- ... in, in, uh, biblical Greek.

Dan McClellan Right, right, right.

Dan Beecher Thank goodness I figured that out.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Oh, suddenly Christianity becomes a lot less problematic for me, requires much less of me-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... and allows me to be the same person that I arrived at Christianity as, so-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, yeah, there, there's an awful lot of rationalizing all of that kind of stuff. And, and Joel here is just rationalizing his own misogyny. Profound, profound misogyny.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, this, this is a, a small man thinking small thoughts and saying small words to try to make himself feel bigger.

Dan Beecher Well c- I... Look, you've mentioned the misogyny. I will just say, I can steel man his misogyny arguments way better than I can steel man this argument- ... the, the deny people food argument. Uh, I, I feel like he's got a case, uh, a biblical case- ... for the misogyny.

Dan McClellan Yes, the Bible is, is highly, uh, misogynist, so yeah, you can, you can construct a case that is far more plausible for that than you can for the notion that you should be able to, uh, gaffaw in the face of needy people seeking aid.

Dan Beecher Of a, of a starving old woman.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Saying, "You starve. Glory to God, you starve."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, yeah, there's, there's no case to make for that from the Bible. That's something that relies on the, the, uh, just misanthropy of Christian nationalism, which is, yeah, more and more I'm gonna get mine, and I wanna see you get yours in, in, in the bad way.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan I wanna watch. I wanna revel in seeing you-

Dan Beecher I wanna delight in your pain-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... and in your suffering, yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. Uh, I mean, pick your poison. If there's one thing we've learned, it's that, uh, all religions can be sort of used in the way that you wish to use it. So I guess you can choose the Joel Webbon way. I highly... We, we... I think it is, I think it's the official policy of this podcast that n- no, no, don't- ... don't do that.

Dan McClellan Don't do that.

Dan Beecher That's-

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We, we, we feed the starving here.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher All right, friends. Well, thank you so much for joining us. That's it. If you would like to become a part of keeping this show rocking and rolling, you can either become a, uh, a member on YouTube, or you can go to our Patreon at patreon.com/dataoverdogma and, uh, join up there. You'll get early ad-free versions of every episode as well as, uh, you'll get, uh, the, the patrons-only content if you sign up at the right, uh, at the right level, and that patrons-only content happens every week. You can ask us questions, and we have to answer it. We cannot back out. So please, uh, please do that if you can. If you can't, just like or subscribe or send us, send the, you know, send this to someone that you think would find it interesting, and we appreciate all of that stuff. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show. Thanks to Sam Holden for being our right-hand dude, and thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.