Can You Lie for Jesus? Joel Webbon Thinks So

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan. And I'm Dan Beecher. And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation. About the same. How are things today, Dan? I'm good. You're

Dan Beecher good? I'm doing all right. How are you doing?

Dan McClellan All right. Uh, you know, I've got some caffeine coursing through my veins. There you go. So, uh, I'm about as good as, as, uh, I can hope to be. So, uh, yeah. Once,

Dan Beecher once you get the drugs working, uh, everything's, everything's firing on all cylinders. Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah, gotta get, gotta have the drugs to help me fall asleep, gotta have the drugs to help me wake up, um, gotta have the drugs to help me stay calm on the plane. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's, if, uh-

Dan Beecher There's more on that if you, if you become a patron. You'll, uh, you'll, you can hear more about the drugs on the plane. Uh, anyway, I, I'm excited for, uh, today's episode because we're gonna be taking issue, uh, with a guy that you and I, Dan, are none too fond of, a fellow named Joel Webbon. He is a pastor. He's, uh, he's a bunch of things. We'll talk all about it. Uh, but the question is, can you lie for good? Is it a, is it permissible to lie, to deceive, for Jesus, question mark? Let's, let's move on with taking issue. Okay, so who, Dan, is Joel Webbon?

Dan McClellan Uh, so, so Joel Webbon is, uh, like the, your quintessential Christian nationalist. Yeah. You, you have some soft Christian nationalists. You have some people who are like, "I don't really know what that means." Um, and then-

Dan Beecher But it sounds good. I like my nation, and I like being a Christian.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher So it sounds pretty good- Yeah ... to be a Christian nationalist.

Dan McClellan It just means you're a Christian and you love your country, right? No. This, this is, this is hardcore Christian nationalism. Yeah. This guy is the president and founder of, uh, something called Right Response Ministries, and the senior pastor of Covenant Bible Church- Mm-hmm ... which is in Austin, Texas. So you know it's good. Right? And, um-

Dan Beecher It's in the liberal part of Texas, so it must be okay.

Dan McClellan And he has a, uh, a podcast, obviously. I mean, he's a white man. Um, and that's-

Dan Beecher Yeah. We all have them. Yeah.

Dan McClellan You're issued a podcast- ... if you grew up in the suburbs. Um, hopefully everybody gets that reference as well. Um, but he recently made some comments. Uh, recently, this show might be airing, like, like a month from now, so.

Dan Beecher Yeah, in, in 10 years.

Dan McClellan Yeah. We, we'll see. It was a bit ago, uh, for you, but he was reading a passage out of 2 Kings 23. Mm. And, uh, he took this passage as authorization to, uh, talk about the goals that somebody who is running for office in the great state of Texas should have, at least a Christian who is running for office in the great state of Texas should have, but goes on to warn against making those goals publicly known. Mm. And, uh, I thought I would start, I thought we could talk about the passage that he read, and then get into, uh, where they, they take everything from there and, and talk about why this is, you know... The, his rhetorical goals are kind of, uh, in stark contrast to pretty much the whole- ... thing called the New Testament. But as, as I've frequently pointed out, when Christian nationalists try to validate and authorize their fascism, they have no choice but to go to the Hebrew Bible. Uh- ... and, and he starts off by reading something from 2 Kings 23, and this is Josiah's reforms. Uh, and, uh, he reads verses five through nine, and this is how it reads in the NRSVue. "He," and he's talking about Josiah, "deposed the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to make offerings in the high places at the cities of Judah and around Jerusalem, those also who made offerings to Baal, to the sun, the moon, the constellations, and all the hosts of the heavens. He brought out the image of Asherah from the house of the Lord, outside Jerusalem to the Wadi Kidron, burned it at the Wadi Kidron, beat it to dust, and threw the dust of it upon the graves of the common people. He broke down the houses of the illicit priests who were in the house of the Lord, where the women did weaving for Asherah. He brought all of the priests out of the towns of Judah and defiled the high places where the priests had made offerings. From Geba to Beersheba he broke down the high places of the gates that were at the entrance of the gates of Joshua, the governor of the city, which were on the left at the gate of the city. The priests of the high places, however, did not come up to the altar of the Lord in Jerusalem, but ate unleavened bread among their kindred." So basically, chapter 22 is when somebody comes to Josiah and says, "Guess what? We found the law of the Lord in the temple." And Josiah goes, "Ooh, is it bad?" And they read it, and it's very bad. Basically, everything you've been doing is actually what we told you not to do, so now you've gotta go make amends for all of this. And so chapter 23 is, is, you know, um, killing all the people who are not supposed to be alive, uh, destroying all the idolatrous stuff and, you know, doing-

Dan Beecher Just tak- just taking a pretty cool place and, uh, and ruining it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like every- everybody's, uh, everybody's chill. Everybody's worshiping whoever they wanna worship and whatever- Yeah ... and then just wrecking that.

Dan McClellan And, and the idea of men in positions of authority just going out and manhandling the people they don't like, you know gives Joel and his co-host a semi.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So he, uh, he likes the cut of the jib of, of that passage. Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's a, it's, it's, it's, it... I, I can see why that could sound like a, uh, a go-ahead for authoritarianism.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher A big, a big thumbs up for, uh- ... dictatorship.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Now, now obviously what's going on here in 2 Kings, one is, is propaganda.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Um, it's not clear that, that any of this happened. We-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... we do think that there were reforms that were implemented by Josiah, uh, but how comprehensive they were, it's not clear. Whether or not it actually involved any of this kind of stuff, it's not clear. Uh, the notion that it was so widespread and involved, uh, literally killing people and all that kind of stuff, most scholars would say, yeah, it, it was not that. But this leads, uh, Joel's co-host, who is, um, his name's Todd, uh, Wesley Todd.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan He says, "If you were to ask me, I absolutely think that the Texas Department of Public Safety, the Texas National Guard, should go through downtown Austin, find churches flying Pride flags, depose their ministers," that is- ... defrock them, "and remove them from the pulpit, take the property, and auction it off to faithful churches." So this is obviously, um, not how the United States of America has ever worked-

Dan Beecher Well, I mean-

Dan McClellan ... for, for several reasons

Dan Beecher ... there are a couple of documents that are pretty, uh, pretty against that-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... type of behavior

Dan McClellan ... documents that are formative for-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... our nation.

Dan Beecher Pretty important, uh, big deal documents here in these United States.

Dan McClellan Yes. Uh, and, and Joel's response is, "Amen. This is what I believe should happen. Yes, that will not happen in Texas, at least in the next 10 years. Who knows what the Lord does. Practically speaking, though, we're very far away from that." And then goes into the, um, the deception part of all of this. "You, if you are a politician running for office, don't say that. We have to live in the real world. Let me pause for a second and make sure that's abundantly clear." When Wesley says, "If you are a Texas politician or aspiring, you're campaigning or want to be, um, don't say that," and what-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... he means by that is, on this particular topic, you've got to hide your power levels.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan You say that the people aren't ready for it. Your kids are going to love it, but the adults are not quite ready for that one, and so don't say it. But we're saying, in principle, that is perfectly permissible. That's why we started, right? It's not just a random Bible verse just to start with the Bible and pretend that we're biblical. No, we start with a Bible verse, a passage that actually pertains. It has relevancy to the topic of today's podcast. And then goes on to say that, uh, this idea is, um, it's not just biblical, it's American.

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan Uh, but he says, "That kind of purity spiraling will put you on the bench. It'll sideline you. It'll function as a liability, so don't run on that, and don't talk about that as a politician yet, but that is the goal." So-

Dan Beecher Yeah, uh, one ha- one hears echoes of Project 2025-

Dan McClellan Yes, yes, yes

Dan Beecher ... in this.

Dan McClellan Here's, here's our manifesto. It's not actually what we wanna do, but it is actually what we wanna do, and-

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah. W- Donald Trump s- saying, "I don't even know what that is. Of course I'm not-"

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... "gonna worry about that. I'm not gonna do that," and then- ... and then literally going point by point and, and down the list and doing it.

Dan McClellan Yes. It is, uh, it's a laugh riot. But, uh, I, I wanna take issue, not only with the, "Hey, we've got to deceive, uh, the public so that you can be elected so that we can achieve the things we are, uh, keeping from the electorate," uh, but I want to take issue with the claim that it is biblical-

Dan Beecher Right. Okay

Dan McClellan ... and American.

Dan Beecher All right. We're taking issue with a bunch of stuff. I like it.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes. So it's biblical. Uh, again, like I said previously, Christian nationalists cannot find support for their arguments in the New Testament. They will weakly appeal to Romans 13, uh, but that... Romans 13 is not going to authorize-

Dan Beecher What does Romans-

Dan McClellan ... this

Dan Beecher ... 13 say?

Dan McClellan Uh, Romans 13 is, uh, the one where Paul says that, um, uh, political powers are, are put in place by God. Uh-

Dan Beecher Oh, right, right, right, right, right

Dan McClellan ... and so, you know-

Dan Beecher Sure, sure

Dan McClellan ... you can't... You don't wanna fight against God, so, um-

Dan Beecher That, that, that one only works for them when their guys are in power.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes.

Dan Beecher When, when you, when you s- w- you know, when, when Obama was in power, if you said, you know, "Your subject, th- the, the... He must have been put there by God," they, uh, they, they suddenly shrink away from that conversation.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yeah. Those... It, it is very, very selective when Romans 13 is authoritative.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And it is always and only when someone is questioning our fascist agenda.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and also, you know, a close look at Romans 13 makes clear that s- that this is situationally emergent rhetoric that Paul is, is using. He's writing to folks in Rome, and he expects Jesus to be coming back any minute now, and he's basically saying, "Hey, pay your taxes. Don't rock the apple cart." Uh- ... and so sa- do- does it by saying, "Yeah, so, you know, uh, governments are in- uh, instituted by God, so, you know, just chill." Uh, and obviously that does not mean that, um, that everybody has to respect and honor and cannot speak out against any government. I mean, our nation only exists because we rejected, uh, the government.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But anyway, um, so that's really the only passage that, that Christian nationalists can appeal to. Other than that, they've gotta go to the Hebrew Bible to try to find advocacy for basically theocracy.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And when we look in the New Testament, the authors of the New Testament, the people who were putting the words into Jesus' mouth- All pretty clearly did not have any political power and did not have any, uh, I don't know, aspirations to p- political power. Certainly didn't have any prospects for political power. So political power was something that other people did, and they were glad to let them have it. Uh, they basically just railed against empire.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So here's one of the examples where we have inconsistency between the Hebrew Bible and the New Testaments, uh, regarding, you know, the, the limits of political power and its imposition of a government's will on the people. The New Testament is agin it-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, when it comes to the theocracies that are talked about and endorsed in the Hebrew Bible. So when, when Joel says-

Dan Beecher Well, at least we-

Dan McClellan Go ahead.

Dan Beecher Well, I, w- I was just gonna say that we've talked about the fact that, uh, you know, the, the New Testament is largely from the perspective of a sort of downtrodden minority.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You know, a, a, a marginalized little group of, of, you know, upstart rapscallions.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, whereas, you know, like 2 Kings, Josiah's a king. You know, we're talking-

Dan McClellan It's royal propaganda.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're coming from, at it from the perspective of, of the, you know, the, the, the, an, an emperor essentially.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Someone who, who is unquestionable and can order the deaths of people and act with absolute impunity.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Which seems like, first of all, when you, that's what you're clinging to, Webbon, when, w- you know, when you're clinging to, uh, stories about kings, it's hard to feel less American than that. Like, the whole... As you pointed out, like, the whole point of America was to get away from monarchy, to get away from, uh, you know, non- non-representative government, and now that's exactly what he's appealing to.

Dan McClellan And theocracy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It, it was also, I mean, the, the framers of, of the Constitution quite explicitly put in there no, no religious test for office.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and this is what a lot of Christian nationalists also struggle with, is the misapprehension that the way some state constitutions were written has anything at all to do with the way the US Constitution was written, 'cause they'll point out, "Oh, well, you know, the, several of the 13, uh, colonies, their state constitutions had religious tests for office." It's like, yeah, that did not create the United States of America. The creation of the United States of America explicitly and very clearly said, "We're not doing that."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So if you wanna say the state of Massachusetts was into that for a few decades before they got rid of it, that's great. That has nothing to do with our nation. Um, and yeah, we were trying to get away from that kind of theocratic rule. The, uh, you know, the, the Puritans who came over here, ironically, they went ahead and implemented it themselves- ... uh, when they came over here to escape being told how to live their Christianity. But by the time of the, the founding of the US, we kinda learned our lesson.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And even those states that did have tests for, religious tests for office in their constitutions, within 50 years, almost all of them were gone because they also learned their lesson. So the notion that it's biblical, uh, is, is not clear-cut at all.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's biblical if you're ignoring a large chunk of what is supposed to be the more important part of the Bible for somebody who identifies as a Christian, and you kind of negotiate with it in a very specific, predetermined, selective way.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan In, in, i- and in that sense, anything can be biblical.

Dan Beecher Yeah. If there's one thing we've learned through the years in this show, it's that you can pretty much support almost any position using the Bible-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... if you really, really want to. Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, so that doesn't mean anything. And American? No.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan In absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is 100% precluded by everything that sits at the foundation of the American nation. Now, can you talk about behaviors that suggest certain people are a little more authoritarian, a little more oppressive with their, uh, with their Christian nationalism? Yeah, and usually we got over that stuff pretty quick, or usually those people were defeated, uh, in an election or, uh, by circumstances or something like that. There's-

Dan Beecher And history does not smile on those people.

Dan McClellan No, no. Uh, it's profoundly stupid to say that, that this is, uh, something that is American. You do not go and, uh, beat down the doors of a church for flying a pride flag and then confiscate their property and give it to the churches you agree with. That's the kinda thing you did when you had a swastika on your arm.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, that is not the kind of thing that happens in America. We've fought multiple wars over that. Joel, your side is over. So, um, like, it's not American. Now, um, do, does America do lots of bad stuff? Are we currently going through a, uh, you know, our fascism era? Yeah. Yeah. But it is also, uh, there's no case to make apart from what we, wh- whatever we feel like doing right now in this moment constitutes what is American. That's a, a ridiculous argument. But Webbon's not big on, on making arguments. Web- Webbon's big on asserting things on a podcast and then not responding to challenges because he doesn't know the Bible very well at all.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, and he doesn't know much at all about American history. What he knows is the things to say that will make small men who s- think small thoughts feel big. Uh, because he is a small man, he does think small thoughts, but he tries to come up with big words so that he can make himself feel big.

Dan Beecher Well, let's explore n- then the thing, the one thing that we, that, that, that we sort of pitched at the beginning of the episode, which is this idea of is it okay... 'Cause w- 'cause, 'cause in the end, what he's, what, what he is asking is that people running for office hide their true intentions, deceive the, the people that they're, that they're, uh, going to be, uh, representing-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... and then, and then, uh, have, you know, and then enact this ulterior motive. So I wanted to talk about, you know, the, the most obvious thing biblically about that is, uh, that one, that one list of rules that everybody's so keen on that has that thou shalt not bear false witness-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, moment.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I think, you know, that's pretty obvious, but that, it's not the end of the story. It, the... Boy, a lot of people want you to make it the end of the story, but there's plenty of moments in the Bible where people are deceptive.

Dan McClellan Including God.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. The big guy. Okay. Sure.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The, it is treated as, as, uh, you know, you have an ideal in, in some societies, the, the idea of a trickster-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... somebody who, uh, who is able to manipulate people to get what they want. There are times and places where that is considered an asset. Uh, and, and you have that in, uh, in parts of the Hebrew Bible. Um, and, you know, within the history of early Christianity, you have people who, who imagine that, that Christians were an underground sect that had to, to be incredibly secretive. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's peculiar how they kind of compartmentalize the-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, the approval of that, the endorsement of that over and against the, the kind of black and whites, uh, prohibitions on, on precisely that thing. And lying is an interesting one because yeah, you have God doing it, too. I, I have a friend named John Anderson who published a wonderful book called Jacob and the Divine Trickster.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And this is about stories in, uh, in the Jacob Cycle, in the Book of Genesis, where deception is what allows God to fulfill the ancestral promises. Uh, for instance, when Jacob is, wants to, to leave Laban. Laban has deceived Jacob by giving him the wrong wife when, uh-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... you, you recall that.

Dan Beecher I remember this, yes.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And so then later on-

Dan Beecher What, what a great trick. What a fantastic-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Ha ha.

Dan McClellan Yeah. You got me there.

Dan Beecher And then Jacob was just like, "Oh, you. You got me."

Dan McClellan Yeah. And he's like, "Tell you what-

Dan Beecher "I'll work for another seven years for n- for the right wife."

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then he uses this bit of sympathetic magic, the, uh, the sticks with, that he's peeled the bark off of, and stuff like that-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... to try to, uh, make it so, uh, sheep give birth to, uh, certain kinds of patterns, and things like that. And basically, um, tricks Laban, deceives Laban, uh, so that when he does leave, he can take with him the best of the flocks, and-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... and, um, everything like that. And attributes that to God, that God is the one that, that, uh, i- made this possible-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... and made it so I could do this. And, and there are other examples of, uh, of using deception and trickery to, to get what somebody wants. And the authors of the Jacob Cycle seem to represent God as not only being okay with it, but even orchestrating it-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... in, in multiple examples, which would suggest that yeah, God is, is, uh, down with, with deception as well when God's purposes are on the line, so.

Dan Beecher Well, there's also God's story about when you're gonna die if you eat that fruit.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah, Genesis 2:17, which, uh, which, uh, didn't end up coming to pass-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... quite the way God intended. Which, which I think, uh, you know, i- is related to the fact that in Genesis 6 and in, in 1 Samuel 15 and in other passages, God also regrets doing things, 'cause God does not know the future- ... in all parts of the Bible. So, um, so sometimes God gets it wrong, and ... Excuse me. Sometimes the getting it wrong means God was lying, um, and like a, like a parent will sometimes do. Like-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... "I, if I get to three, uh, this is gonna happen." And then you get to three, and you're like, "Just do the thing." Um-

Dan Beecher Just, just do it. Or, or l- yeah, or little Spot is now living on a farm upstate.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The little white lies. But, uh, yeah, so, so God does that as well. So there, there's a case to make that deception can be divine, which just goes to show that, you know, the Bible's not perfectly consistent, and many of the values, even where it, it asserts values as absolutes, they're negotiable.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan They're up for debate, and you can find examples of God saying, you know, "Eh, well, you know, we can get, we can get around this if we have to."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "We can bend this, uh, we can bend this rule." And, and this is what, what fascinates me about, uh, apologists when, when it comes to God lying. When... You, you've heard people talk about how, uh, God is the, the source of morality. Therefore, whatever God does is, is right.

Dan Beecher I see it all the time.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, especially as a challenge to atheists-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... where it's like, "Where do you think your morality comes from?"

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "Ha. Gotcha."

Dan McClellan And, and one of the arguments is that when God kills, it is okay because it's God doing it, and as the source of all morality, if God does it, it's okay.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And that's up to and including killing people or commanding their people to kill, uh, other people. When it comes to lying, for some reason, the people are, uh, uh, people are a lot more squeamish about that.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's like, "No, if God says to kill the child, you gotta kill the child." Right. It's- "And it's okay because it came from God, but... And if God kills, well, God gave life, God can obviously take life. That's God's prerogative." But it's like, "Okay, well, here it says God lied. Eh."

Dan Beecher No, no, no, he wasn't lying.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It was a, it was actually, he bent it, and actually, uh, no, because they, he, when he said you would die that day, uh, days meant 40 years- ... in that time, and-

Dan McClellan A thousand years in, uh- A thousand years, yeah. Yeah. Whatever, yeah. But you never see the, "If God does it, it's right," applied to lying. Yeah. Why is lying the thing that's just a bridge too far for people- ... who lie programmatically when it comes to at least Christian nationalism? Yeah. Like, you, I've, I've, I've always wanted to find somebody who's thoughtful and who will engage in good faith and be like, "Why is lying the immoral thing that you just, that's just a bridge too far for your God, even though, uh, you know, sexual assault, rape, murder, uh, all those things, if God does it, it's perfectly fine 'cause God's the source of all of that anyway. Why is lying the thing that is not on your list?" I, I've, I'm always baffled by that. Because you, that would be the easiest way out, if I'm like, "Yeah, God lies. Yeah, God's allowed to lie 'cause God's the source of all truth." Na-na. Yeah. Um-

Dan Beecher Well, so here's my question then. Is Joel Webbon then, if God, uh, you know, can be a trickster god, and if tho- if trickster tactics can be permissible in, in, uh, service of God's will or God's, uh, ideas, then maybe, I, I... Now I'm wondering, is Joel Webbon, at very least, if he's not correct about, uh, what should happen and what is American- ... and all this stuff, is he not at least a little bit maybe- Consistent ... correct about, uh, about being okay, about, about trickster tactics?

Dan McClellan If, if the rhetorical goals at which Webbon and, uh, and Todd are aimed were actually biblical- Mm-hmm ... and American, then I think you could make a case that, uh, that the Bible, uh... You could negotiate that into the Bible, that being okay.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Now, obviously, it's not biblical. It's also not American. It's also deeply immoral.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, and will prove to be incredibly harmful to a lot of people, including Christian nationalists. Um, and so in that sense, I would say the, yeah, lying for the Lord there, you're not actually lying for the Lord. You're lying for yourself. You're lying to structure power.

Dan Beecher Well, isn't that always how it is?

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Like, it, whenever you're declaring, "I'm doing this for God," or, "I'm doing this for thing," somehow whatever it is that you're doing lines up with your own, uh- Yeah ... desires and- It's- ... your own, uh, eth- ethics and whatever.

Dan McClellan At some point, it's gonna come back around to benefiting you directly. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, um, what's really underlying all of this. Yeah. So I, I think you could make a case that, that it's at least consistent. If, if you are negotiating with the text and you decide that this is biblical and you overlook all of the stuff and you acknowledge that's what you're doing, then yeah, the, the text is not gonna stop you.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And if you want to try to, to make the case that God lies to bring about their purposes and, and this is therefore the, uh, purposes of God that we're lying about, yeah, you could, you could make that case. Uh, every other part of the case is, is profoundly stupid and misguided and wrong, though, and, and again, immoral and hateful and harmful, so...

Dan Beecher Uh, well, and, uh, not for nothing, also, decepti- de- deception, even if it is, even if we could conclude that it's biblically permissible, that's also immoral. Like, it's also immoral to deceive people when you're, when you're running for, uh, uh, for office in order to enact, uh, an agenda that you are pretending you're not going to enact. Like, that's-

Dan McClellan Yes, and- ... th-

Dan Beecher that's also- And it- ... morally i- uh, impermissible.

Dan McClellan Uh, although it is, uh, ongoing all the time.

Dan Beecher Absolutely.

Dan McClellan And yeah, the, the Project 2020-

Dan Beecher I'm not, I'm not claiming they're not doing it.

Dan McClellan Right, right, yeah. I'm

Dan Beecher just-

Dan McClellan The, the... You know, when you, you put somebody on the Supreme Court and they're like, "Are you going to overturn Roe v. Wade?" And it's like, "I can't. I have no idea." And then-

Dan Beecher Well, no, they say, "No, no" ...

Dan McClellan the instant they get in office, "Uh, yeah, let's overturn Roe v. Wade."

Dan Beecher That's, yeah. They, they, they s- what they say is, "Th- no, that's settled law and I believe it's settled law, and, and blah, blah, blah." And then- Yeah ... the first chance they get, they're like, "Woo-hoo."

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. Uh, so everybody lies- Yeah ... uh, unfortunately. And I, uh, having, having, um, run for office twice at the state level, I can see why they do it, and- Yeah ... I can, I can sympathize to some degree with the, with the impulse to do it.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan I adamantly refuse to do it. I refuse to compromise my own principles just because I was told it would, it's the only way to, to be electable in a place where, you know, I'm down by 50 points. Um, and, and one of the, one of the things I found dispiriting was, yeah, being honest is, is not electable. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you, they, they all expect you to lie. Uh, and, and they want you to lie, and you can't really get far, um, in, in most markets, uh, if you're not willing to promise things you don't intend to keep and, uh, lie about what you intend to do and lie to people so that you can get their vote. Um, which I think is a good sign that, um, we're doing something wrong- ... uh, with the way we have organized, uh, these things.

Dan Beecher A- and the thing that we're doing wrong is called politics.

Dan McClellan Yeah. All right. Well,

Dan Beecher I think that's a good place to stop it. Uh, I th- I'm glad that we came to a conclusion that I was not anticipating- ... 'cause I did not think that we would get to if the lying is the permissible part of all of this according to the Bible. So that's fascinating. Uh, but, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna close it off there. Thanks so much, uh, to all of you for, for joining us. If you would like to become a part of keeping this going and supporting us and our, uh, work doing, bringing, you know, the, telling everyone that it's okay to lie biblically- ... uh, you can definitely do that. You can go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma, uh, where you can get access to early and ad-free versions of every episode. You can also get access to the, uh, after party, which is bonus content that we do every week. So, uh, go do that. That'd be cool. Uh, or like, comment, subscribe, do all of those things. Those are pretty cool, too. Share it with a friend that you think might like it. Uh, thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing. Thanks to Sam for being our right-hand man, and thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll see you next time. Bye, everybody.