America (Almost Never) Reads the Bible

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are you and your cardigan today, Dan? Uh,

Dan Beecher uh, just chilling. Chilling? Just having a nice... It's probably one of the last cardi days that I'm going to be having- Yeah ... uh, this season. It's, it's been a little chilly. There's a chill in the air- Yeah ... uh, here in the Salt Lake Valley.

Dan McClellan You are climate controlled in your apartment. I don't know if-

Dan Beecher Uh, yeah. I have some control, it's true, but, you know, I like, I like to be influenced by the outside world. I like to-

Dan McClellan We're gonna approximate what's going on outside.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Just, uh, okay.

Dan Beecher Uh, the climate control inside might be a problem. I might have to take off the cardigan- Mm ... uh, as we move forward. We'll have to see.

Dan McClellan It's gonna get heated.

Dan Beecher Boom. Uh, anyway, we got some stuff to talk about today. Uh, we're, we're getting topical- Yeah ... uh, as, as we discuss America reading the Bible. Oddly, it doesn't seem like all of America was invited. Um, but many, uh, very m- uh, a lot of conservative religious types are doing a marathon reading of the Bible. As you and I are speaking right now, it is happening.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes.

Dan Beecher By the time it gets out to our, our friends out in the internet world, it will have hopefully mercifully ended. Uh-

Dan McClellan It will have changed nothing. Everyone will have forgotten about it, but yes, it will have happened. Yes,

Dan Beecher indeed. So we'll, we'll chat a little bit about that. Uh, so

Dan McClellan let's just dive in. All right. Let's get topical. And

Dan Beecher the topical, uh, the, the, the reason... I don't know. Like, is the Bible topical? I think that's a funny question- ... because the Bi-

Dan McClellan I mean, increasingly, yes, the Bible is controlling our lives to a degree that we have not experienced, uh, in, in our generation, so.

Dan Beecher Yeah. It's, it's, it's, I mean, it's-

Dan McClellan It's a problem ...

Dan Beecher perpetually topical on our show, but- Yeah ... uh, but what has happened, uh, as, as we sort of hinted at, it was a, a whole bunch of people, uh, a, a laundry list of people have each, uh, been asked to read a small portion of the Bible.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And it's just a cavalcade of- ... uh, of, of sort of people from the religious right. I, I- Yeah ... sincerely doubt anyone on the... Even, you know, prominent Christians on the left side of the spectrum were invited to this.

Dan McClellan I, I, I did find out that they did, uh, reach out to some politicians and, uh, some religious leaders. I don't know which ones exactly. They said that they did invite some, and, uh, they turned it down, so.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and it, I don't know if it was just a token invitation to, to a couple of people, but overwhelmingly, yes, this is, this is the who's who in people you don't wanna know. Um- ... so.

Dan Beecher We, we should list off a few of the people that we're talking about here.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Well, I, the one that I was most surprised by, Kathy Ireland.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher For, model from-

Dan McClellan Model, yes ...

Dan Beecher who was, who was, like, a, a big, one of the, one of the most important m- models in the '90s, I guess, maybe '80s and '90s. I don't remember exactly when her heyday was, but.

Dan McClellan Yeah, it was, it was around that time period, but, um, yes, I re- I recall, I recall knowing about Kathy Ireland as a, as a younger man. Um-

Dan Beecher Knowing about.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Gotcha.

Dan McClellan Um, she's, she, uh, is going to be reading, uh... As of today, sh- this, we have not arrived at the New Testament, but she's going to be reading Luke 21 through Luke 22:38. Okay. But wait a minute, that just seems like the end of Luke 22. Um, why would they... Um, by the way, when I looked up on the Christians Engaged website, which is kind of the home base for this America Reads the Bible thing- Uh-huh ... I don't know who they had putting this together, but they needed an editor. Um, it was bad. It was real bad.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, but, uh, yeah, Kathy Ireland. Dallas Jenkins- Mm ... the creator of, um... Now I forget the name of the show.

Dan Beecher I don't know w- anything- ... about Dallas Jenkins. I've never s-

Dan McClellan The, the Jesus television show, um, that- Oh,

Dan Beecher oh. Uh, uh, uh, oh.

Dan McClellan Oh my gosh. Why can't I remember the name?

Dan Beecher I don't remember what it's called. Anyway.

Dan McClellan Um, all I, I keep the, in my head, um, The Departed keeps popping into my head. And I'm like, I'm almost positive it's not The Departed. M- just may be the residual Boston, um, in- Right ... uh, in me, but it was The Chosen. Sorry. The Chosen.

Dan Beecher There you go. The

Dan McClellan Chosen, yes. Um,

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan I, I hope my friend, who is one of the actors in that television show, does not listen to this episode, but, um, Oh,

Dan Beecher well. You got it eventually. And yet

Dan McClellan he's... Yeah, he's-

Dan Beecher I mean, there's a whole bunch of politicians, you know.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Ugh.

Dan Beecher There's Mike Johnson. There's Ted Cruz and his pappy, Rafael Cruz, are both, are both-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah ...

Dan Beecher taking passages.

Dan McClellan We got, we got Mike Huckabee.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, Dan Patrick of, of, uh, your grandparents will sacrifice their lives for the economy fame during the- ... the pandemic. Uh, Paula White-Cain, the, uh, spiritual advisor, I guess- Yeah ... uh, mascot for, um, Trumpian religiosity.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Uh, Erika Kirk is there.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, Ron DeSantis. Pete Hegseth, who, uh, is, uh, is just a never-ending fount of ridiculousness. Uh, Lee-

Dan Beecher You got, you got Ron De- Ron DeSantis, who's the, the, the governor of Florida. You've got Te- G- Greg Abbott. Greg Abbott,

Dan McClellan yeah.

Dan Beecher The co- the governor of Texas. You got the governor of Tennessee, I think. Uh, and then out of nowhere, you got Victoria Jackson. ... uh, was the, a, a goofball on SNL for a couple years

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh. Victoria

Dan Beecher For, for a few years actually. She was on there for a long time, and now she's just a, uh, a lunatic. Uh-

Dan McClellan Oh, geez. Leanne Womack, uh-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... the country singer.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, I, I recognize a song or two of hers. Uh-

Dan Beecher But I, I gotta say, we're burying the lead

Dan McClellan The lead

Dan Beecher Because-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... w- uh, what we're building to is that President of the United States, Donald John Trump, uh, a reading, uh, which is never a good idea, I think

Dan McClellan More like, more like grimacing at, um-

Dan Beecher He definitely... Uh, I wa- I did watch the video of him. Uh, and here's the thing. So, so yes, they released h- his video. He, he didn't, he didn't go to the event and-

Dan McClellan No

Dan Beecher ... read it from there.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher And part of the reason becomes very clear when you watch the video, and they have these weird cuts back and forth from one camera angle to another, very, making it very clear that they're... Like, these are edit points

Dan McClellan They had to stitch it together, yeah. Yeah

Dan Beecher And there were still a couple of places where I, where you can hear that they've done something digitally- ... to fix what he said, and he still got a lot of things wrong.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. Uh, but-

Dan Beecher This was... He, he got it wildly wrong-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... a bunch of times. Like-

Dan McClellan My, my favorite is in the very first verse that he read. So he was responsible for 2 Chronicles 7:11-22.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan 12 verses is all he had to read. And the very first word, ver- very first verse, he got out "prosperously." Um, 'cause I think he was... He, he started, uh, un- thinking the word was prosperous or prosperity or something like that-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and then it was, it was prosperously, and he went prosperously, and, um, through his clenched teeth. And yeah, it was, it was a struggle to hear him struggle to read, uh, these passages. But the... And I think the, the main parts of, uh, the, the whole passage that he was chosen for, that was chosen for him is that, um, he... Th- this is the part that says, uh, "If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, pray, seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land." And that-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... that's, that's from the NRSVue. He read from the King James Version, obviously. He's trying to hawk his-

Dan Beecher He read from the New King James Version.

Dan McClellan Was it the New King

Dan Beecher James Version? Indeed it was. That is the version that the entire event is focused on.

Dan McClellan Oh.

Dan Beecher Uh, but he didn't even-

Dan McClellan That's even worse.

Dan Beecher ... get that right.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Oof. Um, 'cause he... I know he, uh, he and Lee Greenwood are, are selling their, uh, their Glo- God Bless America Bibles-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... that are, that are, uh, King James Versions.

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan But the, the open-

Dan Beecher But I, I, I think, I think that the idea of the organizers of this event was that, uh, they didn't want to make anyone have to do some of the words that the KJV- ... uh, some of the more arcane words.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan They didn't wanna have, hear anybody say, um, "He who pisseth against the wall." Um-

Dan Beecher But also, like, there are big words that are, that are, you know, not in common circulation-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... anymore, and I think some people, uh, including our president... Forgive me, I d- I just don't think he has the acumen to get at some of these words. But I-

Dan McClellan No

Dan Beecher ... what, what's amazing is they gave him... You, you rightly point out which, what portion of this, uh, of his bit, what they were trying to highlight.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But he didn't know that. He just- ... like, literally droned through the entire thing-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... at a monotone, not understanding a

Dan McClellan word of it. Yeah.

Dan Beecher It w- and also, it's, it was a pretty small thing. Like, you could have given him... There's a bunch of stuff you could've given him. This was a shocking thing. Like, literally, when you find out that he's willing to do it, you find the best thing for the president to do.

Dan McClellan Well, well, here's the thing. The, uh, the opening celebration, the main, the big song that, that w- some guy named Phil King. I don't, I have nev- I don't think I've ever heard of Phil King. I don't know if you've heard of Phil King.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan He's, he was performing his original theme song. So the theme song for the event is called Heal Our Land.

Dan Beecher Ah.

Dan McClellan So, so this was very clearly the money shot-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... of the whole thing, and they got a grimaced Trump face- ... uh, in that, in that m- uh, money shot. But yeah, it was... And the idea seems to be that we're hurting as a nation. Read the Bible. That will magically fix things.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Wh- which is not how things work. Uh, but also-

Dan Beecher I, I mean, it's not how it's worked yet, Dan You don't know. Maybe it's coming. Maybe the-

Dan McClellan Maybe that teapot is out there in space- ... circling around as we speak. You can't say it's not. But the... And the idea seems to be that, you know, we all, we all need to just read the Bible and just say we're Christian, and then God will be like, boom, healed.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and it's, it's one of the most pathetic brands of Christian nationalism I've ever seen. And, and in no small part because the list of people who are reading is a who's who of not just hatred, but just of degeneracy as well. Like, the guy who, who, uh, read the main passage is a serial sexual predator-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... is a serial adulterer. Not only that, you know, there are a bunch of people, like, God can forgive people. God forgives people. These, we can't blame him for past sins. Trump has never once owned up to doing those things.

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... said he was sorry for doing those things. He's even said he has no need for repentance.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, this, this is not a, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, he was, he was asked if he had ever repented for anything, and he was like, "No, not that I can think of."

Dan McClellan Yeah, he says he doesn't do anything wrong, so why does he need re- repentance?

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And on multiple occasions he's said that. So this is, this is your guy?

Dan Beecher Right. He-

Dan McClellan This is your guy. The guy we all heard.

Dan Beecher The heal... This is, this is the guy... I mean, the heal the land part is nice, but if you go back just a few words, as you pointed out, uh, it says, "Humble themselves and pray to s- and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And I don't see humbling of self happening-

Dan McClellan No

Dan Beecher ... whatsoever.

Dan McClellan No, and when they, when they say wicked ways here, they obviously mean being a woman or being Black or being trans.

Dan Beecher Right. Or being-

Dan McClellan Or, you know-

Dan Beecher ... an immigrant or what. Yeah,

Dan McClellan being an immigrant.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Wanting healthcare that you can afford. These are the, the iterations, the manifestations of wickedness that this public reading of the Bible is supposed to, uh, magically purge from-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... from the land. And these, these are the people who are responsible for most of the social ills that plague our land today. Um, this is... I- it's such performative piety on the part of deeply bad people.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Um, like I, I mentioned Dan Patrick was the guy who during the, during the pandemic was like, "Yeah, your, your grandparents will be okay dying so that we can have, you know, so that the economy can recover." Yeah, that's... Like, how much of a misanthrope do you have to be to, to actually say that publicly and then start a- accusing other people of, you know, engaging in, in conspi- just making it all up?

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, that... And, you know, Eric Metaxas, he was on the list, too. What was... Eric Metaxas read Isaiah 52 and 53. He got to read the big Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant, uh, song. And yeah, he's, he's out there saying this is all, everything was a hoax. Everything that has ever happened that, uh, that has been bad for the Right has been a, has been a hoax. Everything from Trump having the election stolen from him in 2020 all the way to, uh, COVID and, and everything in between. These, these people are causing, like, um, you said Ron D- Ron DeSantis was on there, right?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Ron DeSantis is causing all kinds of suffering-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in Florida, uh, that is spilling out into other states as well. Um-

Dan Beecher And it's not just, you know, he's trying to solve a problem. Th- these people aren't just trying to solve societal problems and it accidentally ca- causes some harm, and they just-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... consider that collateral damage.

Dan McClellan That's a feature, not a bug. Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's, it's absolutely baked into what they're trying to do. They want to punish people who disagree with them.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher They want to hurt people that they don't like.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So, so, like, you know, you, you look at how ICE is handling, uh, ha- has been handling people for the last year, uh, in terms of just e- not even bothering to look at... You know, I, I heard a, a story the other day where a, a guy who is an American citizen, who had a Real ID ID on him-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... which you can't get unless you're a, an American citizen.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And, like, he was, he was arrested because he was Brown, and he had, you know, he had a, a last name that ended in E-Z or whatever, and he, uh, he was arrested and driven around town and, you know, for hours and hours, and then, you know, locked up with a bunch of other people, and they didn't... They... He had the, the documents that he needed on his person that whole time-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah

Dan Beecher ... and they refused to look at it-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... because the pain, because the suffering, because the, the cruelty is the point.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The, these are, they're people who wanna get off on being jerks. This is the, the O'Doyle Rules theory of, uh, of governance.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And it's, it's so disgusting that these are the people who are pretending to be the representatives of, uh, of Christianity, and it, it's not that they are not. They are representatives of, of a particular brand of Christianity that unfortunately has been too prominent for, for, uh, far too long in our nation. But they are, are clearly worshipers of power more than anything else. That's what this is really all about, the structuring-

Dan Beecher It's hard to make an argument against that. You know-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... there are some people I'm sure that are in this lit group of people who aren't just sort of right-wing ideologues. Obviously, all of the politicians I don't trust to be anything other than just right to- right-wing ideologues, but I'm sure that some of the, the pastors who have come in are ju- you know, are actual... They're, they're just trying to, to... You know, th- their heart's in a right place.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah, I, I have no i- I have no doubt in my mind that there are an awful lot of... Like, I saw some of the people here were, were prison, uh, pastors and things like that.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan There are a lot of people going through a lot of stuff to try to make lives better for, for certain people.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But along the way, they're hitching their wagon to a movement.

Dan Beecher Exactly.

Dan McClellan And the, the movement is not concerned with helping individuals. The movement is concerned with power, and these folks have, have gotten caught up in it because their, their particular brand of Christianity is too entangled with this movement. Even if they are trying to help the poor, even if they are trying to help the incarcerated, even if they are trying to help the sick and the immigrants and others, they are too entangled in a movement that is concerned with, with structuring power and values, uh, and, and boundaries so as to advance their right-wing authoritarian and social dominance orientation. identity politics. Um, Jenna Ellis, Trump's former, uh, lawyer, I think, uh, is on there. Betsy DeVos.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Betsy DeVos. Betsy DeVos. I don't know if you recall watching any of the hearings for her to be education secretary.

Dan Beecher I-

Dan McClellan She got so humiliated in those hearings and very clearly did not have the foggiest idea what she was there to do or what was going on.

Dan Beecher Yeah. She didn't... She, she was not-

Dan McClellan And they were still like, "Approved." Um, um, Mike Pompeo was reading. Franklin Graham was reading. So- Yeah ... Dean Cain- ... Superman himself- ... like the worst Superman- Oh ... read, uh, read John chapter five.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher That's, uh... Now, now it's, now it's getting personal to you- Yeah ... when Superman is doing this. I just... I wanna know who read... I should have done this research.

Dan McClellan Oh.

Dan Beecher I should have figured this out before we went in. Yeah. Well- I wanna know who read the bit about do not pray publicly and, uh, you know, go to your closet to pray. I wanna know who read the part that said, "Hey, maybe don't make it about loud, uh, and, and sort of public, uh, you know, displays of your religiosity- Yeah ... but instead actually just be good and do it for the sake of itself."

Dan McClellan Yeah. The... So that's Matthew six. That's the Sermon on the Mount.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, let me see if the... Where is the... 'Cause I've, I've got the website open, but, uh, they, they make it such a pain to find this stuff. Yeah. And so it's not, it's not happening yet, uh- Yeah ... 'cause right now I think we're still in, we're in the middle, we're in the, the late Jeremiah chapters. I don't recognize any of the, the names there, but, um, if you give me a second, I'll, I'll look that up. 'Cause I remember some- there- somebody was reading Matthew five. Mike Pompeo was reading Matthew five, and I was like, "Woof."

Dan Beecher Mike Pompeo. Wow.

Dan McClellan He, he gets the Beatitudes, huh?

Dan Beecher Yeah, that's-

Dan McClellan Um, so, uh- ... I... And I remember thinking, "Okay, who gets the rest of the, uh, Sermon on the Mount?" And I, I think I didn't recognize the name, but, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. There you go ... I'll

Dan McClellan look it up real quick.

Dan Beecher I, I mean, it's just one of those things where, uh, that's actually... You know, that is so pertinent to this, I would say. I don't know. You, you tell me because you, you know that verse better than I do. You know... I, uh, I... So I, I don't know, uh, if that, if that would apply. It feels like it would apply. It feels like this, uh, you know, this whole thing is such a performative display. It feels like it's, it, like that particular bit of the Sermon on the Mount is apropos. But am, am I, am I reading too much into it, is part of my question. Uh,

Dan McClellan so the... I, I think it, it would be apropos. I think when, when we think about what, what kind of stuff is, is God asking for in order to, according to 2 Chronicles, heal the land, well, what does everybody around 2 Chronicles have to say? Uh, basically generate a just and a righteous society. Uh, have mercy, do justice, uh, all those kinds of things. Some, some dude named Chris Kuball is, uh, was reading the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, and Chris is the chief program officer at Intercessors for America, a national network of state leaders who are mobilizing intercessors to pray for and engage with state legislators. So- ... I'm, I'm not hopeful that- Yeah ... uh, Chris really is concerned for what is actually being advocated for in the Sermon on the Mount.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher I... One wonders if he'll just, if he'll do a sort of- She ... do not pray on the s- ...

Dan McClellan Chris is a she. Okay. Um, well, Chris is a woman, um, as, as far as I can tell. I imagine that the pronouns are gonna be what- ... what, uh, what we think they are. But, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. One... W- I, I can't imagine that anyone invited to this event has pronouns that do not match their, uh-

Dan McClellan No, no ...

Dan Beecher their assigned at birth gender, but, uh, you know, who knows? I, yeah, it, it seems impossible that that would be a thing.

Dan McClellan And it, it, it baffles me that there's a whole organization that, uh, people are obviously making millions and millions of dollars off of, inviting people to pray for stuff to happen. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah ...

Dan McClellan that's not how things work. Uh, yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, uh, I, I don't know that there's that much more to say about it other than, you know, this... It's an event where... And this, I, I think what's made clear, especially clear by Trump's, uh, entry into this, is that this is a drone. This isn't... No one's trying to highlight anything scriptural in this. No one's trying to, uh, bring out a message- Yeah ... uh, from, from the Bible for this. They're just, they're just saying all of the words of it, and then, uh, you know, and, and I assume probably there are speeches before and after that are actually, like, more, uh, more about what they're really getting after.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher But the, as you say, the, the, the- this is designed not to accomplish anything. It is just for show.

Dan McClellan Oh, it's performative. Yeah, 100%. That's, that's what this is all about. Now, now certainly there are people who believe this is going to affect some kind of change, and a lot of people are sharing it on, on- Twitter, for instance, the, the, the first time I saw Trump grimacing at the camera trying to squeak out 2 Chronicles 7, it was because somebody shared it on Twitter, and they were like, "The President of the United States reading the Bible from the Oval Office. This is a new world with... You know, we're Through the Looking-Glass people. This is unreal." And, and it's, it doesn't... It's not going to change anything. It's- Well- ... it's just performative to make people feel like they're, um, make people feel important, like they're making a difference when they're doing nothing.

Dan Beecher But they're also... I mean, there is this secondary thing that they're trying to do, which is they're making themselves feel important, but they're also trying to make non-Christians or people who disagree with them feel like they don't have a place at the table, feel like their v- their voices are not important, their voices cannot be heard over the cacophony of, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Loo- look how representative this is of, of-

Dan Beecher Right. So- ...

Dan McClellan the real America.

Dan Beecher So I think a lot of the messaging here is, "If you're not one of us, if you're not a Christian, if you're not, you know, if you're Muslim, if you're Hindu, if you're atheist, if you're whatever, uh, you're not a real American. This is what real Americans do."

Dan McClellan Yeah. And it's coinciding with a, a push to, for people to, to start attending church more. Like Ben Shapiro was on a show, and somebody was like, "What, what would... What does a nation have to do, what does a, a broken nation have to do to heal?" And he said, "Go to church." He's like, "I'm Jewish."

Dan Beecher The Jews said, "Go to church." Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan Well, well, yeah. What he said was, "So I would... You know, if you're Jewish, go to synagogue, but- Right ... go to church 'cause this is a Christian nation." And ugh. Um, and it's like, well, I, I don't know if Ben Shapiro knows the period of the Founding, when the US Constitution was constructed and our nation was created, is the period of lowest church attendance and church membership in all of US history up until now.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So we're kind of, by not going to church, returning to the Founders- Yeah ... and, and their approach to, uh, to things. So yeah, going, going to church... If going to, if all going to church does is make you, um, support ICE and hate your neighbor, you're, one, your, your church is doing it wrong, but also just the act of going to church or just the act of reading the Bible doesn't accomplish what you think it's going to accomplish- Right ... precisely because it's just performative. It is- Yeah ... just a way to, uh, to toe the line, to put on display your willingness to sign off on these credences so that other people will think you're a real one, and that just advances your own interests. It's all selfish. It's all- Yeah ... entirely about advancing their own interests.

Dan Beecher Yeah. I, you know, I think coming up soon, you, you and I need to do a, uh, a thing about the, the... We'll do a whole segment about the claim that the Founding Fathers quoted the Bible more than any other book-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah ... or whatever. Oh, gosh. We'll, we'll- You've... I've heard that for years now.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And yes, we're definitely gonna need to do a segment on that one. Yeah. All right.

Dan Beecher Well, if you'd like to hear us blather a little bit more, you can always get some, uh, really good bonus content over on patreon.com, where our patrons, uh, at the $10 a month level get the after party that we do every single week, uh, as well as early and ad-free access to every episode of the show. Thanks so much to Roger Goudy for editing, thanks to JJ for being our producer, and thanks to all y'all for tuning in. We'll talk to you again next time. Bye, everybody.