JD Vance on the Antichrist and the End Times

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? Things

Dan Beecher are good. Things are good. Mm-hmm. We're, uh, we're gearing up to combat the, the misinformation out there. And, uh, and I think today we gotta have our full battle rattle on, 'cause we're- Yeah ... uh, we're going in heavy. And we're going in, in against a former Marine, so- Yeah ... uh, so a member of the Marine Corps. Uh, that's one, uh, J.D. Vance. We're gonna be- Yeah ... we're gonna be going hard on, on J.D.

Dan McClellan When I, when I go for my runs in the morning- Uh-huh ... there's a, there's kind of a vacant-ish lot that's in between, uh, uh, a library and a restaurant- Uh-huh ... down the street a ways. And the sign i- has a sign, and it's, like, for sale. And, uh, whoever runs that company, their name's, like, James D. Vance. And every time I run by it, I'm like, "What?" It throws me off every time. I completely forget this thing exists, and then- Yeah ... I run by it, and I'm like, "Ah." So.

Dan Beecher And what's sad about that- Spooky ... is that, that, you know, that means that he gets asked that question all the time. "Oh, are you related to J.D. Vance? Your name is J.D. Vance," and then- Yeah ... uh, and sadly, that's not even J.D. Vance's name. He changed his name to be that. So, like, I, you know, he, he could've-

Dan McClellan A lot of, a lot of conservatives who, um... c- yeah, didn't somebody say that, like, he needs to, to- ... change his voter registration or something like that?

Dan Beecher I don't know.

Dan McClellan Or he's gotta bring in his bir- old birth certificate with his...

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. No. So anyway, uh, w- uh, but before we dive in, I am going to point out, uh, a thing for our YouTube subscribers especially-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah ...

Dan Beecher which is that, uh, if you become a member of the Tribe of Dan here on YouTube, uh, and that's just, you can just see there's a join button next to our, our thing. And if you join up, uh, you will get access to a bunch of, uh, a few things, but one of those things is Dan and I, we will be doing, uh, Lives here on YouTube. Yeah. And, uh, the first one is now scheduled. It's coming up on the 27th of this month. That would be September. So, uh, I encourage you to consider it if it's something that you would consider. Uh, it costs you a little bit of money, but, uh, that money goes to a good cause, which is feeding my face. And, uh, and then, uh, and, you know, hopefully we'll do more cool stuff like Lives and, uh, and other things. I'll tell you about it at the end of the thing. But- Yeah ... uh, but I just wanted to put that out there. 27th, mark it on your calendar. Join up and, uh, and we'll, we'll answer your questions, and have a good time. Anyway, uh- Mm-hmm ... J.D. Vance said some stuff about the, uh, the end days, the end times. Uh-huh. And I believe that you and I are, are taking issue with it, so- To some degree, yeah. Let's, uh-

Dan McClellan It's a qualified taking issue, but yeah ...

Dan Beecher let's dive into Taking Issue. All right. Brother Vance goes on this other podcast and, uh- Yeah,

Dan McClellan I think, I think the guy's name is Bryce Crawford. Yeah. Like-

Dan Beecher Uh, I think that's right. I-

Dan McClellan Definitely the name somebody in their 20s has. Yeah. Um, but

Dan Beecher yeah. And, and the kid decided to put on a tie for this interview- ... which I thought was respectful, 'cause the rest of his channel does not see him in a tie, though- Yeah ... he, uh, anyway, I won't, I'm not gonna go after the kid. It, he's- Yeah ... he is whatever he is. But J.D. Vance at one point started talking about being fascinated by end times prophecy and theology. And- Ugh ... uh, and just saying, uh, he, he mentioned that the first Bible that he ever got was the John Hagee Proph- Prophecy Study Bible.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, I don't know if you've dived into that piece of work.

Dan McClellan Uh, that's a piece of literature that is in my, uh, TBR, uh, pile. Which is entirely a lie. I will never even look at it. But, um-

Dan Beecher TBR stands for to be rejected.

Dan McClellan Yes. To be recycled. Um, yes. Uh, no, I ha- I have no intention of, of looking at a John Hagee, uh, Prophecy Study Bible. But yeah, he seemed to be, he seemed to, to... the, the idea of the Antichrist seemed to have gained some purchase in his conscience starting at a fairly young age. Mm. And didn't he, didn't he say something along the lines of he, he wouldn't be surprised if the Antichrist were already walking among us or-

Dan Beecher Yeah, he said something about that ...

Dan McClellan or, or something spooky like that. But- He- ... but he also, uh, and as you pointed out when we were talking about doing this segment, to be fair, qualified an awful lot of this. It was, uh-

Dan Beecher Well, which was actually refreshing, and I'm mad that you made me- ... uh, w- like, watch a thing where I was like, yeah, but now we've gotta be fair to Vance, because he doesn't say the thing that a lot of Christians, that we hear a lot of Christians say. Yeah. Maybe it's the Catholic thing. Maybe him converting to Catholicism- Well, that... yeah ... like, sort of took it down a notch or two for him. Uh-

Dan McClellan But, but I, but I think at the same time it kind of shows that he's... I don't think he's fully, uh, I don't think he's fully aware of or fully invested in what Catholicism is, is really, um, Catholicism's relationship to end times- Mm ... the eschaton. Because they actually have a, a pretty clear prohibition on trying to escalate- ... uh, to catalyze, uh, the end times. And there's, and there's even, I think there's a catechism, and, and folks who are Catholic or know the, the catechism a lot better than me are gonna know this far better than I do. But, but I thought there was a catechism that- Said something along the lines of, "We should never allow our anticipation of the end times get in the way of trying to make the world we live in now a better place."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which, which kind of says you have a priority. Yeah, and it- And it is, it is making the world a better place ...

Dan Beecher and I think that that is a very useful thing to have because as we have seen, and as we are going to talk about, there are people who don't view it that way. Now-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah ...

Dan Beecher Vance, in this interview, did say, "Do I think that we're in the end times?" This is a quote. "I don't know, and I think it's probably bad for me spiritually to focus too much on it."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher I have to give him credit for that. Uh, yeah, that would be a bad thing to sp- for, uh, the leader of, or one of the leaders of our country to focus on.

Dan McClellan Unfortunately, there are a lot of other leaders in, in our country at various levels who are heavily focused on it.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And are, are even, it seems, giddy about it.

Dan Beecher Yeah, it feels like- Enthusiastic ... that's a Hegseth sort of, uh, territory right there. But we haven't heard him say it, so I can't... That's, uh... Don't quote me on that.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, so-

Dan McClellan Well, I, I... We, we recently had the, uh, the flooding in Nepal. Mm. Which was just a, a, just bonkers weather-ish climate event.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Where you had melting snow, and a glacier collapsed- Right ... and fell, like, a kilometer into a very narrow, steep valley and just sent hundreds of millions of, of gallons, tons of debris and stuff-

Dan Beecher And water ...

Dan McClellan uh, just... And water. Just scraping a bunch of habitations just right off the, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, it was, it was devastating. I've seen- Yeah ... you know, I'm used to seeing flash flood footage 'cause it happens here all the time because we live- Mm ... in a desert with lots of canyons, and, you know, water feeds water and whatever. But that's, that's nothing like anything we've ever seen before.

Dan McClellan It was apocalyptic, yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher It was- But I- ... it was devastating and, uh, and horrifying.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And- And, um... But I, I saw videos. People were making videos like, "It's the end times. This is it, people. We gotta make sure we're right with Jesus." I was like, "Hey, don't exploit that kind of horrific tragedy for s- some clicks and some digital pats on the butt."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, like, and, and, like, this is... Climate change is definitely involved in, in what happened here. It might not have been the proximate cause, but it was definitely a factor- Yeah ... in this happening, and so this is not-

Dan Beecher And it might well have been the proximate cause. At this point, you know.

Dan McClellan It, it could've been. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Um, but, you know, at this point, it's not that Jesus is making things worse, uh, because He's about to return. We're making things worse because we are refusing to take these things seriously.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, and so this is, this is really on us. But, but I've seen a lot of, of that kind of stuff, of-

Dan Beecher Well, and, and- ...

Dan McClellan "You guys need to be paying attention 'cause Jesus is coming."

Dan Beecher And this... Th- of course, this happens with every major world... You know, every time there's a major- Yeah ... earthquake somewhere. And unfort- and really unfortunately, we live in the convergence of a few things that make this much worse. A, everybody's got a camera, so everything is being videotaped. So- Yeah ... we're, we're s- we're, we're faced with the visuals of it. It's not just... We're not just reading about it in our newspaper, and if you didn't read the paper, you don't even know.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher We're seeing videos come in from all over the place of everything. If there's, you know, if there's an earthquake in Nicaragua, if there's a whatever- Yeah ... over here or over there, we're seeing it. And at the same time, as you say, uh, global warming's happening. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Climate change is real. And- And so we're, we're actually causing a bunch of major, like, catastrophic weather phenomena as well.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And now we've got, we've got three hurricanes making their way across the Pacific Ocean, uh, because of El Niño, and, uh- Fun ... which as, as we learned from Chris Farley, uh, a long time ago, means The Niño. Um-

Dan Beecher It is Spanish for The Niño. It's true.

Dan McClellan Yes. Um, and, uh, and, you know, we're all on social... Not all of us. A lot of us are on social media, and the algo daddy is feeding us all the stuff that, that, you know, we pause on.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so w- we're, we're being made to feel like there's an increase in the occurrence of, of these kinds of things. And- And lest

Dan Beecher people think... I would, I do wanna say, lest people think that we're just talking about, like, a few crackpots going, "Oh, it's the end times." No. No. Like, uh, Adventist Angels Watchman Radio, I don't know, that's a, that's a website. They had an article called Prophetic News Analysis: Nepal's Devastating Flood Wave, a Call to Prepare.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And, um, you know, there's a group called Rapture Ready, uh, that's a long-running prophecy website, and they're, they had a thing called, uh... Yeah. They, they, they talked about the Nepal death toll rising and, and basically it, you know, it, they, they're seeing it as a, as something to, uh, as a sign.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, you know, if you b- what was it? 2021, 2022, the Euphrates River water levels-

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah ...

Dan McClellan were getting v- incredibly low, and so you had all these, uh, misinformed people- ... maybe is, is how I'll say it, uh, talking about how this is all in the Book of Revelation, that the great river will dry up and make way- Mm ... for the armies of the East. And when the river dries up, the four angels that are trapped or that are imprisoned underneath the Euphrates River will be free to go destroy one-third of humanity. And- Yeah ... and oh, my gosh. And people are, like, giddy about it. The people on social media are making a lot of hay off of freaking people out about- horrifying natural disasters and climate emergencies that are taking lives- Yeah ... on the other side of the planet, about whom the people who are spreading this stuff could not care less.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and unfortunately so much of it has to do with a, a, a g- a, a human own goal. The, uh- ... well, the, the self-inflicted wound of, of anthropogenic, uh, climate change. But yeah, uh, J.D. Vance, big on the John Hagee Prophecy Study Bible.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, big into eschatology. He converted to Catholicism not too long ago, right?

Dan Beecher N- yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Just a handful of years ago. And, but it still seems to have brought with him a lot of his evangelical eschatological outlook, but is trying to... It sounds like he's trying to temper it- Right ... uh, by-

Dan Beecher And one- ...

Dan McClellan by saying, "Well-"

Dan Beecher One doesn't know if that's because he's a politician or because he's now a Catholic, or, you know, one doesn't know h- to what to attribute that. But there's one thing that I wanted to bring up that surprised- Yeah ... me a little bit as I was sort of looking at those different articles and, and researching this. Because you mentioned, uh, Revelation as being a pl- and that's generally- Yeah ... where my mind goes to when people start talking about end times and whatever. But then I kept seeing Matthew 24 come up. Hmm. And I think that that's actually pretty interesting, 'cause I hadn't realized that in the gospels themselves, there's also stuff that's, uh, that's interesting. Now, uh, you know, it's, it's talking about signs of, you know, s- the, the sort of end times- Yeah ... kind of thing, that- Yeah ... the signs of the age, the end of the age.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And it's, you know, it's Jesus talking and saying, uh, you know, when he'll come back essentially.

Dan McClellan Right. Second coming.

Dan Beecher And, and he says, uh, you know, and he talks about persecutions, and he talks about lawlessness, and then he talks... And he, but he does talk about, he sort- he quotes Daniel, I guess, uh, and, and says, "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the Prophet Daniel standing- Right ... in the holy place, uh, let your reader understand, then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. The one on the housetops must, uh, housetop must not go down to take things from the house," blah, blah, blah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And I just... But then, you know, it, it does have a whole bunch of, uh, of stuff about when the Son of Man is coming, they, you know... It says, uh, "The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of heaven, uh, will be sh- shaken."

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And I think that that is a, you know... I think, I think they're quoting from, uh, from Ghostbusters in that part. But, uh-

Dan McClellan Well, or Ghostbusters could be kind of riffing on the Bible, but, uh- What? ... yeah, w- that's, that- That

Dan Beecher doesn't sound right ...

Dan McClellan that is you have that in, like, Joel and Isaiah and, and Ezekiel and stuff like that. So yeah, it's kind of a common motif.

Dan Beecher Right. Uh, and I think that's what... But this is what they're looking for, right? These are the, this is the things that they, that, that these people like J.D. Vance are looking for and s- and sort of delighting in. Because the, the, the end goal for a lot of the, the end times people, or for a lot of the, the, the people who are focused on the Rapture or the eschaton or whatever, are... They're kinda, you know, they want Jesus to r- the Second Coming to occur.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And that's understandable. That's kind of the main event of, of, uh, the Bible, I guess- Yeah ... of, of at least of, of the New Testament. So it makes a logical sense. There's a certain sense that it makes to say, "I want that to happen as quickly as possible. It's been 2,000 years. We, I want it to happen. How do we... What do we do to make it happen?" And then and that leads people down some very dark roads- Yeah ... and some very scary roads.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And I, I think it's important to note that the, when we look at the Olivet Discourse, when we look at Matthew 24, when we look at what Jesus was supposed to have been prophesying, it's a lot of imagery drawn from the Hebrew Bible, and it seems pretty clear to me, and particularly in Matthew, there's an argument to make about Mark, but it seems pretty clear to me that at least in Matthew, it should have happened in the first century. That's the- Right ... the, Jesus is prophesying that his Second Coming would happen while the people he was talking to were still alive- Right ... at least some of them. Right. And, you know, the, the Gospel of Matthew is probably written between 80 and 90 CE, somewhere around there. And so that's ma- that's a handful of decades after Jesus's death, and so it would be kind of like, "Hey, we're on the, you know, we're on the back nine definitely of- Right ... of this. We are walking off the green- Yeah ... of 18, so yeah-

Dan Beecher Any minute now ...

Dan McClellan it's coming. Yeah. And, and that any minute now position has, has kind of ebbed and flowed over the centuries. There have been times when people are like, "Nah." And then today it's definitely we're back into the, "Ooh, it's coming. Any minute now."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. I mean, it's pretty amazing that- ...

Dan McClellan and people are getting so excited about it ...

Dan Beecher how long any minute now can last.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and we have, unfortunately, you talked about a convergence of, of a bunch of different things. The rise of Christian nationalism- Mm ... I think is, is kind of feeding into that evangelical fervor, because Christian nationalism has got its hooks most deeply into American evangelicalism. And that is the movement that I think has the most influence today on, on Trumpism- Mm-hmm ... which has been, uh, kind of the way things have been going for the last decade- Mm ... since we heard the president boast about getting away with sexually assaulting women because of his celebrity. For some reason, this is the era that we still are in. Um, but the... I think the Christian nationalism has only gotten more fervent, and unfortunately, it has just dialed up the, uh, millennial expectations to 11. And, uh, to the degree that even, uh, this ostensible Catholic is, is, uh, talking about this where... And, and the, the quote that I don't think that we've gotten to yet, but that was, was what, uh, Meg me- made me first go, "Uh, excuse me? Baking powder?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, when, when I ran across it on, uh, on social media, and I think I have lost, uh, the exact quote, but do you have the exact quote here?

Dan Beecher Um, I, I've been looking. It is- Uh-

Dan McClellan We probably should've, uh, had that queued up, but, um- We... Yeah. Uh- The... I thought I just had it, and, uh, and now, um, yeah, he thinks end times are coming, that he wouldn't be surprised if the Antichrist was walking among us. Uh, he says he's, he puts his odds at getting into Heaven at 75%. Uh, but, um, he also says that he's gonna... He's focused on doing the work, uh, doing God's work.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And if that brings about the end times, he's okay with that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. That was, that was it. I finally found it just as you were saying it, so yes.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, that is pretty shocking.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, I mean, it's... I, uh, again, I understand that sentiment from the perspective of, you know, if, if that is... If you believe that Jesus is coming, and that that is inevitable, and that that is what brings about the glory of the world at some point or whatever, if you believe that Revelation was talking about something literal or whatever- Mm ... then yeah, you want it to happen. Like, yeah, we... You were promised a second coming. Uh, when is it happening? But the thought that he's saying, "If my actions, me, lead to the end times," the thought that that's even in his head- Yeah ... that he could take actions that leads to the end times is shocking, and very scary. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah. It, um, is, is rather disturbing. Yeah. Uh- And, uh, and the, the whole thing, like, a lot of the folks who are so excited about this are folks who are promoting ideologies and policymaking and things like that, that are directly responsible for causing more inequity, more instability, uh, for causing a lot of socioeconomic problems, a lot of geopolitical problems. The war in Iran, the dumbest war in a long string of dumb wars- Yeah ... uh, that we... Uh, if... We will be lucky to call this war a wash. We will be lucky to just get back to the, the way things were before we- ... started the war.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And that's just ignoring the lives, and the money, uh, and, and the harm to the economy. We will be lucky to get back to the point where we were when Donald Trump decided to start a war. Uh, but a, a lot of people think Iran is a major player in what's gonna happen because-

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah ... Iran is- They do talk about that all the time. Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's, it's Iran, it's Russia, it's China, because the prophecies in, in Ezekiel that are about entirely different people groups occupying entirely different territories obviously has to correlate to some political entity that exists today. Um, and so, uh, that's got a lot of people, uh, excited as well. But-

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan They-

Dan Beecher Well, so in fairness- Yeah ... to, uh, to Vance, I am gonna finish, uh, the quote.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher Because he says, he says, uh, he says, "What I'm trying to..." As you said, "What I'm trying to focus on is doing as much of God's work as possible right now, and if that leads to the end times, okay, and if that leads to, uh, you know, us building a better world that thrives and survives for a very long time after I'm gone, that's great, too." Now, A, uh, and, and, but then he goes on to say, "The end times may be coming. In fact, they are coming. It's just a question of whether they're coming in thousands of years or down the... or thousands of years down the road or a few months down the road." I... Here's the thing. Uh, the other, the other thing that bothers... I mean, we've kind of made all the points about the end times stuff and how scary that is, but, uh, one of the points that bothers me is that he thinks he's supposed to be doing God's work. Uh- Yeah,

Dan McClellan he's, he's doing- ...

Dan Beecher as opposed to the work of the, the American people, which is what his job is.

Dan McClellan Which he's also not doing.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Really, what he's doing is, is the work of the person who- Yeah ... we all heard boast about getting away with sexually assaulting women because of his celebrity. Um-

Dan Beecher Oh, not just him. I, I think, I think he's on a pretty short T- Peter Thiel leash as well, but that's, uh- It's, he's not serving, uh, who, the electorate, I think.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, I think that's not his, his primary goal. Uh-

Dan McClellan So I, I just wanted to read this from Pope John Paul VI-

Dan Beecher Oh

Dan McClellan ... on December 7th, 1965. Uh, a very long, this is chapter three in, in a very long, um, text. But, uh, this paragraph says, "Therefore, while we are warned that it profits a man nothing if he gain the whole world and lose himself, the expectation of a new earth must not weaken, but rather stimulate our concern for cultivating this one. For here grows the body of a new human family, a body which even now is able to give some kind of foreshadowing of the new age. Hence, while earthly progress must be carefully distinguished from the growth of Christ's kingdom, to the extent that the former can contribute to the better ordering of human society, it is of vital concern to the Kingdom of God." So I don't know the degree to which J.D. Vance signs off on a lot of the claims that, oh, it doesn't matter. We can only expect these things to be fixed when Christ comes, or we don't have to fix the environment, Christ is coming. Like that, I, I don't know if, if Vance signs off on all that kind of stuff, but it would seem that's the official position of the church to which he now belongs is, don't do that. Um, and, uh, yeah. I, I think he... But he's, he's, he's gone up against the Pope m- several times already.

Dan Beecher He killed that one.

Dan McClellan And... Ah. Yeah, he's, he said a lot of stuff that... When, when the, when the Pope has to issue a statement calling you out-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... as wrong, like maybe, maybe reconsider-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, opening your mouth and talking-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... about these things.

Dan Beecher Well, J.D. Vance, uh, just a real peach of a fella, and we're all real, real happy that he's at least not trying to bring about the end times, so.

Dan McClellan Not actively, yeah.

Dan Beecher Keep that up, J.D. And, uh, we'll, uh, we'll leave it at that. Friends, uh, just a reminder that you can join our YouTube Tribe of Dan here on the channel. If you click the join thing, that will give you access to the lives that Dan and I are gonna do, hopefully at least monthly. You never know, Dan is a very busy boy. It's hard to get him to do anything these days. But I got time. Maybe I'll just do some lives with people-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, randomly. Um, but yeah, we got one coming up on the 27th of this month, so please keep that in mind. Check your calendars, mark your whatevers, and, uh, and, and join up. You can also get, uh, access to all of our videos a day early, exclusive access to some upcoming, uh, to livestreams, like I said, and scholarship-themed badges, uh, next to your handle that, um, that upgrade the longer you're a member, so that's kinda fun. Uh, and there are custom Data Over Dogma emojis that you can use in our comments section, uh, some of which may or may not be our faces. So I, I guess you can have a lot of fun with that. I think that's kinda crazy and fun. Uh, we're also taking suggestions, so if there are more things that you want, uh, as a member, hit us up. Uh, throw them into the, the comments section. We're paying attention, or Sam is. W- well- ... somebody is. Um, as always, we're great- we're grateful to all of our patrons over on Patreon.com. You can do both. You can be a patron over there, get our patrons only content there, and get our members only content here, uh, if, if such as, uh, if you have the means, if that is something of which you are capable. We desperately appreciate all of our members and patrons so much. If, uh, l- well, let's see. That, I guess that's it. Uh, thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing. Thanks to Sam for being our producer, and thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.