What you've been getting wrong about Easter

Dan McClellan Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher And I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And you are listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

Dan Beecher And we do it with enthusiasm.

Dan McClellan And with style. Um-

Dan Beecher I don't know why I needed to be, uh, why did I wanna just be enthusiastic in that moment?

Dan McClellan I don't know. I was,

Dan Beecher I'm excited.

Dan McClellan We're trying to, uh, cast a wider net for, uh, for our audience.

Dan Beecher That's right. Uh,

Dan McClellan I guess. That's right. Yeah. Our, uh- We tried the sound effects a couple of times. It didn't go so well. But, um- I thought the slide whistle worked.

Dan Beecher I don't know why you were against it. But fine, fine.

Dan McClellan I really like the boing sound effect. But, you know, there's, there's stuff, uh, there's baggage there. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, uh, how are things today?

Dan Beecher Man, uh, it's good. We are fast approaching, or depending on when you hear this, recently passed, uh- ... Holy Week. We're, we're, we're- Mm-hmm ... trying to record this in a ti- in a timely manner to make sure that it appears sometime around Easter.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And, uh, uh, that is, s- that's a fun time for a lot of folks. Um-

Dan McClellan The most beloved of holidays for many Christians around the world, although most of them don't call it Easter. But maybe we'll talk-

Dan Beecher That's true ... w- well,

Dan McClellan maybe we'll talk about that one when we get into it.

Dan Beecher Well, we talked about it a year ago, if you'll recall.

Dan McClellan Did we talk about it?

Dan Beecher Oh, gosh. We, we talked about, about Pesach and, uh- Pesach, there you go ... and

Dan McClellan the, uh, you know, the,

Dan Beecher the, the fact that it's Passover. Anyway, here's the thing about Easter. I find it very confusing. I, as a child, I always found it very confusing, uh, because there was joy and candy and fun and, uh, bunnies and, uh, murder. A really important, horrific, painful, awful murder.

Dan McClellan State violence. Yeah, state- Which- ... sanctioned violence ...

Dan Beecher which felt, uh, incongruous to me.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm. I don't know about the rest of you all, but, uh, that- Well, I didn't know the word incongruous when I was a kid- ... celebrating Easter, but, um- No, no, I'm,

Dan Beecher I'm imposing that one on you.

Dan McClellan Okay, okay. Uh,

Dan Beecher I don't think that I, I knew that one either. Uh, but we're gonna, so at the beginning of this, uh, episode, we're gonna talk about Holy Week, sort of what happened, the timeline. Do the Gospels maybe, uh, eh, do they not quite agree on s- a few things? And how- Yeah ... h- how does that work? And then you're gonna talk about, uh, resurrection.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And not just, not just Jesus's res- resurrection, but just the concept as a whole.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Where, where did this thing come from? How is it being worked into, uh, the Gospels? And yeah, we're gonna get into it. Uh, probably the most controversial episode that we'll ever have, uh- Ooh ... regarding the... I'm, I'm being sarcastic just 'cause- Oh, yeah ... yeah, the, the notion that the Gospels conflict on their timeline for the, for the final week of Jesus's life probably shouldn't surprise anyone who has ever heard our voices before. But, um- Yeah.

Dan Beecher Well, let's get into it. I'm gonna call, uh, uh, I, I, we'll, we'll just call this a chapter and verse as- Okay ... we dive into this. So, uh, here's the thing. I, when I started to do some research about Holy Week and- Mm-hmm ... wanted a timeline, I just wanted to sort of understand the basic timeline, um, and try to keep straight what each of the Gospels was doing.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher All of the timelines that I found were on apologetic websites that didn't seem to think that there were ever any conflicts, and it was all very easy to track.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And, uh, and then those same websites would be like, "Of course, you know, the skeptics will say that blah, blah, blah and blah, blah, blah conflict, but that's not true because of, uh, all of our, you know, all of X, Y, and Z apologetics."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm. Um,

Dan Beecher so what I decided to do was actually go to the website that they were most often citing as what the skeptics would say, which is the Skeptic's Anni- Annotated Bible.

Dan McClellan Okay. Uh,

Dan Beecher and even I caught them out on a couple things that seemed like a bit of a stretch in terms of their, uh, their contradictions.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher But some of them seem like important contradictions. So I-

Dan McClellan Yeah ...

Dan Beecher so my, my thinking is we'll go through the timeline, and I'll bring a couple things up as we go that, that might be contradictions, or you can.

Dan McClellan Okay. Um, w- uh, and,

Dan Beecher and we start basically, don't we, with, with a story we've already told, which is Jesus riding two donkeys into Jerusalem.

Dan McClellan Right. Whether this was one on top of the other- ... uh, whether, uh, Jesus was doing the old Zorro.

Dan Beecher The donkey pyramid, it- Yeah ... has quickly become my favorite of the, uh, of the images.

Dan McClellan Yeah, that's, it's gonna be canon pretty soon. I mean, once, uh, once Zack Snyder gets ahold of it, that's gonna be canon. So, um, w- we'll have some lens flares. We'll have- Yeah ... uh, Jesus on two donkeys. So, um-

Dan Beecher I like it.

Dan McClellan And that is the, uh, the triumphal entry, which-

Dan Beecher Which by the way, it sounded like you were, but you weren't just swearing under your breath because it sounds- ... 'cause if you mutter, "Jesus on two donkeys" That... That doesn't necessarily sound, that is what, you were just talking about that. You weren't just- Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, um, yeah. In, in Disney movies, it will be, "Cheese on two donkeys," like, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, exactly, or whatever.

Dan McClellan Well, I don't know if you've ever watched The, The Princess and the Frog.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan But there's one part where one of the characters is, like, getting upset and storms out of a, of a church, and she goes, "Cheese and crackers." And I was like, "That's, like, one of the most, like, transparent- Yeah ... uh, substitutions for, uh, for what's considered profanity I've ever heard in a Disney movie."

Dan Beecher Yeah. That, that's, so somebody writing, uh, work- working on the script for that w- went to BYU. That's all I'm saying. Uh,

Dan McClellan okay. So we, uh, I wanna go just before the triumphal entry, though.

Dan Beecher Awesome.

Dan McClellan Because we already have, we already have something that is, uh, a bit incongruous-

Dan Beecher Oh, okay ...

Dan McClellan or incongruous if you're nasty. Uh, at the beginning of John, uh, 12, we have Jesus arriving in Bethany. Now, uh, m- one thing to note about the difference between John and the Synoptics is Jesus' ministry is one year- Right ... in the Synoptics. He's up in Galilee. He's, um, you've got the, uh, uh, the evangelical triangle, these three main cities, uh, that he's, uh, operating within, and then it's kind of the on the way to Jerusalem, um, you know, road trip. And then he's in Jerusalem, and that's the last week, and then that's it. John actually has a, what seems to be a three-year ministry, and John has Jesus arriving in Jerusalem, uh, and cleansing the temple in chapter two.

Dan Beecher Whoa. Like,

Dan McClellan right after the wedding in Cana, uh, he goes down to Jerusalem to cleanse the temple. So-

Dan Beecher Remind us quickly what the order that we think the Gospels were written in. So- John was the last one, right? Uh,

Dan McClellan well, it depends on, uh, on where you put Luke.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because, uh, Mark is, is almost universally agreed to be the earliest Gospel.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's the shortest. It's the one that, uh, doesn't include some of the things that seems to be, seem to be expansions and innovations on the story- Right ... that we find in Matthew and Luke, like the birth narrative. Uh, it's the one that doesn't even seem to have a post-resurrection story at all. Uh, w- we have one that's tacked on later. Uh, and then it's probably Matthew.

Dan Beecher Okay. Um,

Dan McClellan Luke was probably l- written after Matthew and is reliant, uh, I, some scholars think is, um, reliant to some degree on Matthew as well as, as on Mark. Uh, we talked a little bit with Helen Bond about the possibility that Luke might be early second century.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan That it might have been written after John. But most people put John somewhere in the mid-90s CE-

Dan Beecher Okay ...

Dan McClellan so almost at the very end of the first century CE. So-

Dan Beecher And why is John considered separate from the, the Synoptic Gospels? S-

Dan McClellan because the narrative is so different.

Dan Beecher Okay. Uh,

Dan McClellan synoptic, see together. You can line up the, the three Synoptic Gospels, and there's, a lot of the narrative and a lot of the sayings are parallel. Uh, or if they're not parallel, the same things are found in other parts of the narrative. Okay. So it seems clear that Matthew and Luke are reliant on Mark.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan They also share things that are not in Mark, and so this is where the idea of Q comes from. That Q, which is the, the, um, a reference to the German word quelle, which means source, is this other source that was not used by Mark that Matthew and Luke are sharing. And then Matthew and Luke also have their own stories that are not in Mark and are not shared, uh, between each other. And scholars will refer to, um, Matthew's independent source as M, and they'll refer to Luke's independent source as L.

Dan Beecher Okay. Um,

Dan McClellan so there's a complex relationship of all these things to each other.

Dan Beecher Right. But

Dan McClellan probably Mark, Matthew, and then either Luke and John or John then Luke. So-

Dan Beecher Okay ...

Dan McClellan it depends.

Dan Beecher Okay. Got it.

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher So we are, so, so John has, uh, Jesus in Jerusalem way before the other guys.

Dan McClellan Yeah, he's, he, um, gets baptized. So he's like, "I gotta hit this wedding." Uh, and, uh, and then, uh, moseys on down to Jerusalem and cleanses the temple. Okay. And this is first year of his ministry, and he's gonna be going back and forth between Jerusalem and Galilee a couple of times. But in, in, uh, John chapter 12, he shows up in Bethany for his, his third trip to Jerusalem, and then he is anointed before the triumphal entry.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay. Uh,

Dan McClellan all the other anointings take place after the triumphal entry.

Dan Beecher This is the, this is the, uh, the, the ano- the anointing is, uh, a woman putting, uh, oil on his feet? Is that the thing, or am I thinking of something else?

Dan McClellan Yeah, we actually have a, a, a couple of different things where, um... Yeah, here what we have is, uh, somebody named Mary. D- uh, Jesus is in Bethany. He's in Lazarus' house, which is different- Oh, right ... from the Synoptics as well 'cause, um, in those he's in the house of some dude named Simon. And, um, Mary shows up, and, uh, she's got a, uh, a pound of this expensive ointment, ointment, uh, spikenard, I think is, uh, is what- ... it,

Dan Beecher how it's translated in the, uh- That is my favorite thing in the universe.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah, in John. Spikenard. And, um, the, we, we usually translate anoint, but the Greek verb is not the normal verb for anoint there. Um, so it's, it's more like just cleaning or perfuming his feet, and wipes his feet with her hair.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And this is, and there are a few different things that are going on here. 'Cause one, his feet have not been washed. She's just dumping this oil on his feet and then wiping the oil off. Hmm. So it's almost like, um, "Let me get that for you. Eh, let me just wipe that off. Okay, you, you should be good to go." And there's, um, there's a parallel here between Mary, uh, kind of washing Jesus' feet with this expensive nard. Um, Gotta

Dan Beecher get some good spikenard in there,

Dan McClellan yeah. Yeah, so I, I keep thinking of Monster Squad. "Wolf Man's got nards." Um, and, and then later in, uh, the next chapter, Jesus is gonna wash the feet of his disciples.

Dan Beecher Right. Uh,

Dan McClellan and so you've got, Jesus' feet don't need to be washed because he's already pure. He's not sinful. Uh, but this is taking the place of the anointing that, uh, that happens later on in, in the other Gospels. Uh,

Dan Beecher and- If I remember correctly, when we spoke to Elizabeth Schrader Polczer, uh- ... many moons ago. Mm-hmm. She said that, that her theory is that, uh, that the Mary that does all of this is Mary Magdalene. Is that right?

Dan McClellan Um, she is-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... I don't remember if we talked about John 12.

Dan Beecher I think we did. I know... We

Dan McClellan did we? I think we-

Dan Beecher Okay ...

Dan McClellan in, in Lazarus' house.

Dan Beecher I think that was- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that was, uh, she, she was claiming, she was saying that her research says that it could be that that was Mary Magdalene.

Dan McClellan Yeah. I, I think I remember that. There is, now in Luke, you have this, uh, let me pull up, uh, the chapter. This is, happens in, uh, Luke 7, I believe it is. "He's eating. A woman in the city, which was a sinner, uh, having learned that he was eating in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster jar of ointment. She stood behind him at his feet, weeping, and began to bathe his feet with her tears, and to dry them with her hair, kissing his feet and anointing them with ointment." And again, that's a different word for anoint. And w- and what's interesting here is, um, that sinful woman is not identified.

Dan Beecher It's not- Right ...

Dan McClellan Mary, but the beginning of chapter 8, it's gonna talk about Mary as a woman out of whom Jesus cast seven devils. Um, but this is actually where we get the idea that Mary Magdalene was a sex worker.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because we have Ephrem the, the Syrian in the fourth century who conflates the two, and then, um, Gregory, Pope Gregory the Great in 591 CE gives this homily, um, and, uh, says that, um, in fact, I think I have exactly what he s-

Dan Beecher yeah,

Dan McClellan "She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary."

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan So Gregory is conflating Luke 7 with John 12. "We believe to be Mary from whom seven devils were ejected, according to Mark." Wow. So now we're taking the m- the, the unnamed woman in Luke 7, the Mary who anoints Jesus' feet in m- uh, John 12, and then the Mary from whom Jesus cast seven devils was Mary Magdalene from Mark, and I think is also mentioned in Luke 8. "And what did these seven devils signify if not all the vices? It is clear, brothers, that the woman previously- ... used the unguent to perfume her flesh in forbidden acts."

Dan Beecher Oh. What she- Wow. So s-

Dan McClellan "What she therefore displayed more scandas- scandalously, she was now offering to God in a more praiseworthy manner."

Dan Beecher So. S- You look- Yeah ... when you have one vial of ointment or unction- ... or whatever, you- You got a pound of it.

Dan McClellan You got, you got-

Dan Beecher You gotta, you-

Dan McClellan ... 16 ounces ...

Dan Beecher look, you gotta use it for all the purposes. You got... If, if it's your lube, it's also the thing- ... that you wash your savior's feet with. It's fine.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um-

Dan Beecher Okay. Uh, we-

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher Let's, let's, let's keep going with the, with the story here.

Dan McClellan With the story, yeah. Because we got,

Dan Beecher we got a whole week to get through.

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh. That's gonna

Dan Beecher take- We, we, look, we're not gonna get through all of it, but we'll- Right ... there will be other, uh, Easters, guys. We'll get back to it.

Dan McClellan Right. Um- So, um, so that brings us to the, the triumphal entry, and we've already gone through some of the, the differences with the triumphal entry. But this happens on Sunday, and this is Palm Sunday.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So why do we call it Palm Sunday? Well, because they were waving palm fronds, palm branches- Right ... in celebration of the triumphal entry of their king, who was just sitting on his ass. Um- "Honey,

Dan Beecher honey, he's coming. Go get some leaves."

Dan McClellan That's an old Brian Regan bit.

Dan Beecher "Get some leaves." Um- Oh, I don't, I don't know that. Uh.

Dan McClellan All right. Uh,

Dan Beecher okay. So he makes it in, and now we have another timeline issue.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm. Um, you s-

Dan Beecher you said that John cleansed the temple. Uh, John had him cleansing the temple way back in chapter 2.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Now we've got Luke saying that basically n- not having any time between the triumphal entry and the cleansing of the temple.

Dan McClellan Yeah, it seems like Luke comes into the city, and then he's like, and, you know, he made his way over to the temple and then he starts, um, uh, beating people. So- Flipping tables and- Yeah, flipping tables and, uh, and gently letting the birds go, but, um- Yeah, exactly. "I'm here to set some birds free and to kick some ass, and I'm all out of birds."

Dan Beecher That's right.

Dan McClellan So, um, he's, uh, and according to Luke, that seems to happen on Sunday. He's not being very clear.

Dan Beecher Right. Uh,

Dan McClellan in fact, right after the cleansing of the temple, it sa- it just says, like, "And he was in the temple a bunch."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, not being clear about what day these things are, are happening.

Dan Beecher But the- But definitely makes it sound like it's that day.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. There's, there's no narrative break. It's just- Right ... his, uh,

Dan Beecher triumphal entry.

Dan McClellan He makes his way to the temple, uh, and then he drives, uh, out the m- the money changers. Uh, but- The other two synoptic authors, however, explicitly put this on the next day.

Dan Beecher Right. So he, uh, so he cleanses the temple. Uh, that, that's, that's a good day. Uh, uh-

Dan McClellan And w- it, uh, the, the cursing of the fig tree also is something that is not in Luke.

Dan Beecher That's right.

Dan McClellan It is in Matthew and Mark, and I don't know if that has something to do with why they put it on the next day, but- Hmm ... but that's something that's also in here. Yeah,

Dan Beecher that's, uh, yeah, that's right. That's another thing that we talked about, uh, on an earlier episode.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So, uh, great.

Dan McClellan Oh, and also, he seems, home base here seems to be Bethany.

Dan Beecher Okay. Um, all- So that's just outside of Jerusalem?

Dan McClellan So yeah, in-

Dan Beecher Or inside?

Dan McClellan It's outside of, uh, of the city. So, uh, on the east side of Jerusalem, you got this valley, the Kidron Valley, and then you have the Mount of Olives.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the Mount of Olives is, is, uh, is pretty big. Uh, and if you, um, go up kind of the middle to the south end of the Mount of Olives and, and keep going east, uh, kind of on the, the, the back slope of the Mount of Olives, you've got Bethany. Okay. And so he's- ... just outside the city. Uh, or as, uh, what did the, uh, what did the comedian say who talked about the fig tree? Uh, like when you fly into a place, you just stay at the Ramada by the airport. You don't go, you don't go downtown to- Sure ... um, to stay. So, um, so Bethany is where he returns to- Right ... uh, in the evenings. And that is, I believe, across all four gospels. Okay.

Dan Beecher John has

Dan McClellan him arriving in Bethany, staying with, with Lazarus, and the others have him in, uh, Bethany spending the night with, uh, Simon, I think. So on Tuesday, we also have, um, what most folks refer to as temple controversies, but we also have- Ooh ... what's called the Olivet Discourse on the return to Bethany. So they're heading back to the hotel and, um, and w- Jesus is talking about the second coming, basically, and this is in, uh, the three Synoptic Gospels. Uh, and this is where we get the, um, the Son of Man will be like this. There's one standing in the field, one will be taken, one will be left. Um, Son of Man coming in the clouds of glory and, um, and all that imagery.

Dan Beecher Okay. Uh, a- and,

Dan McClellan but this is, this is not... In John, John has another spot where he, um, sprinkles, uh, some discourse in, which I think is funny. It's actually after the Last Supper. Oh.

Dan Beecher But, uh,

Dan McClellan Jesus is, you know, they, they finish the Last Supper, and he goes, "Well, let's get out of here." And then there are three chapters of Jesus lecturing them. And then, um... So that's like the, um, I think it's the end of, uh, of chapter 14. It sa- He says, uh, "Arise, let us go." And then, uh, it's not until chapter 18 that it's like, "So they arose and they left." Um-

Dan Beecher Well, listen, if, if I was facing down what Jesus was facing down at that time- ... I'd probably like, you know- Just stall ... dodd- doddle a little bit myself.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, um, a lot of scholars think that, that the discourse in there, which includes the intercessory prayer, um, was added or moved from another part of John or something like that. So-

Dan Beecher Okay. Um,

Dan McClellan so we do have, you know, the, the four Gospels don't always agree on when things happened, but it sounds like even John couldn't agree on when things- ... uh, were happening. Things were getting moved around. Um, on Wednesday, Jesus continues to teach in the temple. The temple is, is kind of, uh, you know, he spends the night in Bethany, but during the day, he's, he's in the temple, um, dropping knowledge. And there, we also get reports that n- now the Sanhedrin, the bad guys, are like, "Jesus is in town. We need to, uh, exploit this opportunity." Uh-

Dan Beecher Well, and every time he goes to the temple, he's just raising a ruckus. Yeah.

Dan McClellan He's

Dan Beecher causing trouble.

Dan McClellan So- And, and here's something that, that I brought up on, um, on some social media site recently- ... that, that annoyed a, a lot of people, and, and it's something I've said before on, uh, on TikTok. The reconstruction of the historical Jesus doesn't really have a role for the Sanhedrin in Jesus's death. It was probably the Romans who were like, "Somebody came in and drove a bunch of people out of the temple and started a small riot. Well, kill that guy." Um, that's probably- Yeah ... not all that went into it.

Dan Beecher That's called disturbing the peace.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher That is not legal.

Dan McClellan And this is, this is the, uh, biggest festival celebration of the year in this giant city- Hmm ... capital city, where the Romans are always struggling to keep the peace. And so if anything put Jesus on the Romans' radar, it was making a whip and driving a bunch of people, uh, out of the Jewish temple and starting a, a small riot. And so from- Yeah ... a, from a critical, historical Jesus point of view, that was probably what got him killed.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Now, when the gospel authors get ahold of it, you get this kind of, uh, trajectory from Mark, where, you know, the, um, the Jewish leaders are involved, all the way to John, where it was like Satan entered into them and they were all trying to- ... plot, "How are we gonna get this Jesus killed?" And, and, you know, you have different takes on, on Pilate, where Pilate's like, "This man is innocent, but I will do whatever you tell me to," which is- Right ... very clearly fiction because the actual Pilate murdered Jewish citizens in Jerusalem, uh, by the handful- ... whenever they annoyed him.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So the notion that they would get together and be like, "We're gonna tell on you," and he was like, "Okay, I'll do what you want," is just not historical.

Dan Beecher Right. Um,

Dan McClellan and so it, it seems like the, the role of the Jewish leaders in this, and, and up to and including the, the notion that they all cried out with one voice saying, "His blood will be on us," uh-

Dan Beecher Right ... that's,

Dan McClellan that's all fiction. Right. That is something that they made up to shift the blame to, um, the Jewish people, um, and off of, uh, the people who were probably actually responsible for his death, uh, the Romanis- So- ... those called Romans.

Dan Beecher When, when you say they, uh, did this to shift the blame, you're talking about- Mm-hmm ... the authors of the Gospels? Uh,

Dan McClellan yeah. And w- probably, this probably originated before they were actually committed to text. But the people- Okay ... who are curating the, the tradition, um, either as it was circulating orally or who were committing it to writing in the sources that may have been used by Mark and, and the other gospel authors.

Dan Beecher But- Was this... Do, do, do scholars believe that the reason to shift that blame from the Romans to the Jews was just as a means of separating Christianity, this new cult, from its Jewish roots? Was it a m- uh, or, or why would they do that? Um,

Dan McClellan not so much. Uh, I th- I think probably part of it had to do with, um, growing hostility between Jesus followers within Judaism and the rest of, of the movement. Um, probably some of it had to do with, uh, the fact that they were trying to, um, get by in a Roman world.

Dan Beecher Mm. Uh, and so were, were trying to- So, so it's a bad look to be like, "Look, the Romans killed your, your- ... your god," or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And, and I think there were, um, there were other rhetorical points to make about, uh, the Jewish folks who rejected their savior. Right. Uh, that have, uh, kind of an anti-Semitic tinge to them.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Uh,

Dan McClellan and, and I, uh... A wonderful book I think that discusses this to some degree is, uh, Bart Ehrman's book, uh, Jesus Before the Gospels, which uses social memory to talk about how the w- the presentation of Jesus's life and death in the gospels could be serving certain, um, interests, uh, within kind of the, the social memory of, of what happened. What is likely a gist memory- Mm ... versus what has been altered in order to serve the rhetorical goals of the authors and, and the communities.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, so yeah, that, that's something that is probably a literary creation is- Okay ... um, the, uh, you know, the Sanhedrin sitting there plotting, "How are we gonna get Jesus murdered?" But, uh-

Dan Beecher Okay ...

Dan McClellan but that starts on Wednesday according to- Okay ... um, yeah. The, that was their Hump Wednesday. Um, Wednesday into Thursday, we're making preparations for, uh, the Passover. Uh, and then we have the Last Supper, which is in ye olde upper room. Uh, and if you go to, uh, Jerusalem today, there's even a, a, a medieval style upper room that they will, uh, take you through. And, and, uh, a lot of space in there. It, it would've been a pretty happening, um, Last Supper if, if that's where, uh, it had actually happened. Uh,

Dan Beecher we have the- And, and the Last Supper itself was a Passover- Right ...

Dan McClellan Seder.

Dan Beecher Or, or, or a Passover meal.

Dan McClellan Uh, y- well, yeah,

Dan Beecher it would've been,

Dan McClellan it would've been a Passover meal. But the way they would've done it in the first century CE is not perfectly clear to us.

Dan Beecher Right. Uh,

Dan McClellan but the way it's done today is, uh, is quite different.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So it, you know, they didn't have a little matzah that they were passing around under the table to the, uh, to the kids to hide- Right ... and, and, and this kind of thing. Uh, those are much later developed, uh, traditions. But yeah, it would've been a traditional, um, Passover meal. Uh, and then we have within the Synoptic Gospels, uh, they, so they're in Jerusalem. They go out, uh, probably skirt around the south side of Jerusalem to go down the hill into the Kidron Valley and come up the other side to the western slope of the Mount of Olives to what is known as the Garden of Gethsemane, um, which refers to an oil press. And so- Hmm ... these are olive trees that- Yeah ... that make up this garden. And we have Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane. We don't have this, um, this prayer in John. Hmm. Some people think that the, uh, the intercessory prayer is kind of the Johannine substitute for, uh, the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Dan Beecher Okay. Uh,

Dan McClellan at which point Jesus is arrested in the garden, um, which is something that is precipitated by the betrayal by Judas. And another interesting trajectory is with Judas. Uh, there's a theory that in Mark, there's not a presentation of Judas as, as a, um, conniving backstabber.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan It says that he turned Jesus over, but the, the handed over verb is kind of morally neutral.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Like, it's not a negative, it's not inherently negative. And there's a theory that, that, uh, Judas had done this in the hopes that he would be setting up the confrontation that would catalyze, uh, Jesus's, uh, you know, uh, hulking out and, and, um- Right ... and destroying the Romans. Uh, and then after he saw, "Oh, no- ... uh, that didn't work," uh, he is, uh, distraught because, uh, he could have been trying to, uh, arrange the meeting to, to, um, kick off the second coming. And it's in Matthew, um, Luke, and then John, where Judas is increasingly possessed by the devil- Right ... to do this. Uh, so it's, it's an interesting trajectory to see as, as Judas starts off. So Mark doesn't have him get paid for it.

Dan Beecher Mark doesn't have any of that stuff. Is that right?

Dan McClellan Um, I, there's definitely not, they don't mention, um, Judas going and picking up money, uh, like we have in, uh, in Matthew and in Luke/Acts.

Dan Beecher Okay. Uh,

Dan McClellan so yeah, it is, uh, it is something that he ju- it's, it's just kinda like, "And then Judas did this."

Dan Beecher And- They're like, "Hey, who's Jesus?" And he's like, "He's that guy." Just, just, "Oh, it's that one." Not, not necessarily a mwahaha sort of feel. Yeah,

Dan McClellan yeah, yeah. Um, and, and there have been some interesting, uh, uh, stories of... Oh, uh, that brings up, there's one of the things that Jesus says, uh, on this last night. Uh, in, in Luke, we have him say, uh, you know, uh, "I sent you out without purse or script, and, and you guys did all right,

Dan Beecher right?"

Dan McClellan And they're like, "Yeah, yeah, we did fine." And then he says, "Well, now sell what you have and, and buy swords." Um, uh, do you recall- Yeah ... something in, in that area? And I've seen people recently appeal to that scripture as an indication that Christians need to be warriors.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, you know, we gotta go strapped. Um-

Dan Beecher It's, it's the, uh, it's, it's the Jordan Peterson school of Christianity.

Dan McClellan It's c- school of meekness, yeah. Yeah, so Um, but what happens is they, uh, he- and it says because he, he's to be numbered among the criminals or s- or words to that effect. And then his, his followers say, "Hey, we got two swords right here." And he goes, "That'll do." And it, it's kind of a weird head-scratcher there. But then when he gets caught in the Garden of Gethsemane, they're there with the swords.

Dan Beecher Right. And so the idea- And one dude loses an ear. One poor guy loses an ear.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah,

Dan Beecher Malchus. Um,

Dan McClellan and the idea seems to be that if he's gonna be counted among the criminals, let's have him have these guys with their unauthorized weapons on them when the Roman authorities show up to, uh, to pinch him. Mm. Uh, and so it's not saying- To do what? Why, why, to what, to what end?

Dan Beecher I'm not sure I understand what the purpose of that would be.

Dan McClellan So there's that, that prophecy he will be, um, counted among the, the transgressors or the criminals or something like that.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay, okay.

Dan McClellan And so the idea is, oh, that fulfills that prophecy- ... that when the Romans show up. And it, it's kind of, it seems like an afterthought- Yeah ... 'cause, you know, the, it never really says, you know, it's not like they try to fight off the Romans apart from just, uh, the ear thing. Um, one guy gets- He's like, "Hey- ... taken code, but" ...

Dan Beecher do you guys remember that, that prophecy? You better get swords. We don't want- ... people to be confused.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and so the, that's the one passage people will appeal to. Like- Right ... "See, Jesus is cool with, uh, with, uh, us having AKs."

Dan Beecher Right. But, um- Yeah, exactly ... it's,

Dan McClellan it's actually just Jesus saying, "Hey, we gotta fulfill a prophecy. Make sure you got a sword laying around." Um-

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher So, um, yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and there are, there are scholars who will say, "Oh, well, the, the disciples misunderstood. They didn't know what he was talking about with the swords." And Jesus was just like, "You know what? Let's just drop it."

Dan Beecher Yeah. Um,

Dan McClellan but I, I think that's historicizing the, uh, the text a little bit too much. But that brings us to, uh, yon trial.

Dan Beecher Ah, yes.

Dan McClellan Did you have any questions, uh, leading up to this? Uh, n- I m-

Dan Beecher should I? Now I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm supposed to. Uh, let's, let's, let's talk about the trial. I mean, so

Dan McClellan we've got... Yeah, w-

Dan Beecher start us in with the, with, with what happens.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher Broad strokes.

Dan McClellan Well, we, we have a few different people that, that Jesus goes before, and, and these are different according to the different gospels. 'Cause we have Annas, uh, who- Oh, right ... I believe is the, the father-in-law of, of, uh, Caiaphas, who used to be the high priest. So in John, uh, he comes before Annas, then he goes before Caiaphas and part of the Sanhedrin, uh, and then later comes back before, uh, the Sanhedrin, and then goes to Pilate. Uh, according to, I think it's, uh, Luke, Pilate sends him to Herod, who then sends him back to Pilate. Um,

Dan Beecher so yeah, there, it's kinda, it kinda bounces around a bit. This all happened in one day?

Dan McClellan Yeah, well, and it starts in, like, the middle of the night, so you can- Oh ... you can imagine, uh, somebody was, like, getting, uh, getting woken up and be like- Yeah, yeah ... "I gotta put on my robe and go out and, um, to see this guy." Um, and yeah, we have Pilate interrogating him, and, and this, this is something that, that Bart Ehrman also points out in his book. There's, uh, in, in some of the accounts, uh, Pilate, like, brings Jesus out to the crowd, and he's like, "This guy? You want me to kill this guy?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And then he, like, takes him back in and then sentences him, and then he goes off and is crucified. And where did we get the account of everything that Pilate and Jesus said in their little private meeting- Right ... in his office before he went off to get crucified? 'Cause none of the disciples were anywhere near any of that, and there was no opportunity for Jesus to tell any of this story. So these are- You ha- you haven't read Pilate's au- authorized biography? There, there actually, uh, there, in the, in the late 19th century, and I've gotta re- remember the name of this book. There were some people who published, uh, what they called The Acts of Pilate- Oh, interesting ... which they claimed were firsthand accounts of Pilate. Uh, but they were, um, you know, they were very clearly 19th-century, uh, compositions.

Dan Beecher Right. And,

Dan McClellan and they're also strangely white supremacist. Like, 'cause

Dan Beecher one of them is like- He said, shocking no one.

Dan McClellan Yeah, he he's... One of them describes Jesus's appearance. Uh, and it's like he, he saw them and, and, you know, he had flowing golden hair and- Uh-huh ... and blue eyes and lighter-colored skin, and then all the Jewish people around him were swarthy with dark hair and- Right,

Dan Beecher yes ...

Dan McClellan you know, he's, he's this, uh, he's this Aryan Adonis.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um, and, and it's just, uh, just straight-up white supremacist. Yeah. But, um, you have some of those in, uh, in the late 19th century, and every now and then on social media you will have people, uh, trot out those accounts and be like, "See? We have accounts of what Jesus looked like." And, um-

Dan Beecher All right. Let's, let's push through. We are, we're already threatening our final. We might not- Okay ... be able to make it to our, to our final thing. Well, we,

Dan McClellan we'll, we can talk a bit about resurrection, um, as we get to the resurrection in the- Sure, sure ... the

Dan Beecher thing. So,

Dan McClellan so, uh, so he's,

Dan Beecher he's pronounced guilty. We figured that out.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Uh, and,

Dan Beecher and sent away to, uh, to the thing. And meanwhile, we, we've got, uh, Peter denying him- Mm-hmm ... uh, along the way.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And there's some question as to the number of cock crowings and, uh- Yeah,

Dan McClellan whether it's just once or three times.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Fine, fine. Uh,

Dan Beecher let's keep going. Um- There's a,

Dan McClellan there's a big discrepancy, however, in regarding when Jesus is crucified.

Dan Beecher Okay. 'Cause

Dan McClellan the Synoptic Gospels describe- ... him being crucified at 9:00, and then it says around noon the sun went dark. And then around 3:00 PM, that is when Jesus says, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" And, and all that kind of stuff. So we have a, a several-hour crucifixion, um, and in John it actually says that they lead him out and crucify him at noon.

Dan Beecher So- Oh, okay ...

Dan McClellan they are off, uh, by a handful of hours.

Dan Beecher And that- And that's, yeah, and that's a, that's a significant difference. It's not-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... it's, it does, it's not, you know, it's not a game-changer, but it does... I mean, if, if the sun, you know, i- if, if we've got moments like the sun going dark, uh, at noon, it, it does seem like it's important to sort of get, keep some of these, uh, t- together.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then, uh, I've seen apologetic attempts to try to identify accounts from later Roman authors who are like, "There was a, there was an eclipse, uh, this year." And they're like, "Ah, that's the year that Jesus was crucified." And it's like, well, there cannot be an eclipse at the Passover because the Passover is when the moon is on the other side of the Earth from- Oh, right ... the sun. So you can't really have an eclipse at that time.

Dan Beecher So, um- Interesting.

Dan McClellan Okay ... the, and, and also, eclipse don't last for three hours.

Dan Beecher Yours don't.

Dan McClellan Max s- seven minutes. Um, did you say yours don't? Of course.

Dan Beecher Yours don't. According to you. May- they had better eclipses back then, did-

Dan McClellan I've been practicing. Um-

Dan Beecher Uh, the, there... Let's, can we just briefly take a brief moment just to talk about, uh, what the soldiers gave Jesus to drink?

Dan McClellan Yeah. Let's talk about that. Um-

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan ... we have the, the, the accounts are different.

Dan Beecher Yes. Um,

Dan McClellan Mark is the earliest, and I would say since this account is found in all the Gospels, they're probably drawing from Mark. Okay. Or from whatever source Mark was drawing from. But Mark is our earliest, and it just says somebody ran, filled a sponge with sour wine- ... put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink, uh, saying, "Let's see if Elijah will come to take him down." Um,

Dan Beecher and then- I, I've got wine mingled with myrrh. Is that just a, a, a King James- Uh,

Dan McClellan what translation are we looking at? Uh-

Dan Beecher I don't know ...

Dan McClellan hang on just a moment. Let me pull up the, the Greek.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, um, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. So we got a sponge, and we got sour wine/vinegar.

Dan Beecher Huh.

Dan McClellan Let me look up this, this word here. For,

Dan Beecher so I have Mark- Oxos.

Dan McClellan Sour wine- Yeah ... or wine vinegar is what it has- Oh, okay ... in Mark. In Mark, okay.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Now let's, uh, Matthew 27:48.

Dan Beecher So, okay.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and that one has, uh, I believe it has the same thing.

Dan Beecher Vinegar to drink. Ma- so this says, now, is, okay, so I don't know what translation these guys are looking at. I'm gonna- ... guess that we're in the, uh, in the KJV.

Dan McClellan Oh, let me, let me take a look. Uh, filled it with vinegar. That's what, uh, it has for Matthew 27:48, uh, in the KJV. I've got,

Dan Beecher oh, I'm looking at Matthew, uh, 27:34. Gave him vinegar, uh, mingled with gall.

Dan McClellan Oh, they gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So that- Which doesn't sound very nice.

Dan McClellan No. And that, but that just says, uh, that has oinon or oinos, which is just wine. That's just the generic word for wine. So that's just- Well, weird ... wine mixed with gall. Um, but that's not the, uh, the stick one. Mm,

Dan Beecher right. Um, which- ...

Dan McClellan which gets interesting. And then we've got John 19:29, and this is the... Of all the, the Gospels, John is the least likely to be historical.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan It's writing the, the furthest away, maybe. Uh, it is also the one that's, that's, um, toying with things the most, and seems to be based on entirely different sources. So-

Dan Beecher But also seems like, uh, the one that's best written. Like, it's most interestingly written.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher It's, it's like, it's like telling a much better story, but- Yeah ... probably it's storytelling. Like, more, more than the other things. Um,

Dan McClellan and there we've got, uh, put a sponge full of, uh, of oxos, so that, uh, sour wine again- Hmm ... on, uh, put it on hyssop. Um,

Dan Beecher and- Dude, what's hyssop? I don't know what hyssop is. Uh, it's a,

Dan McClellan it's a type of, uh, branch.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, it's a type of fl- it's like a bush- Right ...