What is Zion ACTUALLY?

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Just great. Uh, life is good. Mm-hmm. And I am, I'm, I'm happy because we are going to be discussing something that... We're, we're gonna be answering a question this week that we asked a couple weeks ago.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, which was- We're

Dan McClellan actually following through.

Dan Beecher Oh. It's kind of a miracle, frankly. And I think it's a good reason to believe in, uh, in a deity right now. Um, so a couple weeks ago, you and I were talking on this show, and we- Mm-hmm ... mentioned the word Zion- Uh-huh ... or Zion. Uh, we'll, we will get to how that word is pronounced.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher But, uh, but I said I realized that I didn't necessarily know... I, it's a word I've heard a lot. Uh, it's, it's a very prevalent word here in Utah. We might get into that. We'll see.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, but it's, uh... But I didn't really know what it meant or where, what it was from, and you off, y- sort of off the cuff said, "Well, that would be an interesting subject to talk about on the show sometime."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And I believed you. So I think we should just dive right into history's mysteries. So the history's mystery is the word Zion, or the concept of Zion, or whatever Zion is.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher So let's start by, since I said, since I said we would, let's start by talking about how it is pronounced. What is this word?

Dan McClellan S- uh, so it's a Hebrew word. In Hebrew, it's spelled tsade, yod, vav, nun, so it would be pronounced Tzion in Hebrew.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher So we're all wrong.

Dan McClellan Most people are not gonna say Tzion. Right. Uh, we're, we're going to, uh, Tzion National Park down in- ... southern Utah. Um, so in, in transliteration, we usually... You can say Zion, you can say Zion. Uh, you can say whatever you want. W-

Dan Beecher yeah. If, if you're a- So- ... Wachowski, it's gonna be Zion. If you're a Utahn, it's gonna be Zion.

Dan McClellan Yeah. But, uh, it's, you know, there's... Again, we're not prescriptivists on the Data Over Dogma- No ... podcast.

Dan Beecher Not at all.

Dan McClellan Uh, because we're adults. So- ... uh, but the, uh, and one-

Dan Beecher I'm not sure about that, but...

Dan McClellan It's debated- Yeah ... uh, among scholars, yes. Uh, so but this is a word that is used, it's actually used a, a, a few different ways.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And- Yeah ... and, yeah. And within the Latter-day Saint tradition, it's used even a few more different ways.

Dan Beecher Even differenter ways.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan The, the... But the, what I wanted to do is go back to the earliest uses and see what we could figure out there, and, and go back to etymology and stuff like that. And, and- Okay ... there's not a, there's not really a universally agreed upon etymology, but it probably has something to do with, uh, being dry. It probably comes from, uh, a, a root that has reference to being dry, but is being used to refer to a, a place that is like a rocky outcropping that is used for protection.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And the, uh, one of the, one of the probably-

Dan Beecher Like a, like a stronghold sort of thing?

Dan McClellan Kinda, but, but- Okay ... 'cause you, we're getting a little, um, we're conflating some different terms because the first, one of the earliest references to Zion is from 2 Samuel chapter five. And there we have, uh, this is where the Jebusites are occupying Jerusalem, and David is going to fight up against them, and, and they do okay, but then verse seven says, "Nevertheless, David took the Metsudat Tzion," the stronghold of Zion, and then it says, "Hi ir David," or that is the city of David. And so the city of David is the new name for the, the stronghold of Zion, and, uh, this was probably the name that was given to the location that is to be identified either with the entire little, uh, outcropping. So the, the, uh, if you're, if you're looking at a satellite photo of, uh, Jerusalem, uh, the city of David is kind of the Florida of the, uh- ... Temple Mount. It kind of pokes down. There's a- So the- There's a ridge that kind of-

Dan Beecher A dangling appendage? Is that what you're saying? Yes. Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, that, that, that comes down from the, uh, kind of southeastern side of the Temple Mount, and that is known as the city of David. And so Zion probably originally referred to I- if not that whole thing, maybe kind of a, a rocky outcropping, an acropolis, uh, that was at one point a part of that, uh, that s- dangling participle. So, uh, that's probably the, the stronghold of Zion. It probably comes from something associated with, with dryness, uh, where it refers to, uh, something that is all rock instead of having any kind of, uh, soil and things on it. But it became associated with a place of protection. You could climb up-

Dan Beecher You know- ...

Dan McClellan on top of this. So basically the movie Tremors-

Dan Beecher Uh-huh ... uh,

Dan McClellan where w- did they find protection? In the rocky outcroppings.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, so they had to climb-

Dan Beecher I'm starting to think that- ...

Dan McClellan on top of those ...

Dan Beecher just sort of, I mean, it's interesting that just by dumb luck, the, the LDS people who named the, uh, the national park down south in Utah, they actually nailed it when they used their word Zion- For a dry-

Dan McClellan A dry rocky place

Dan Beecher ... rocky place, uh, in, in Southern Utah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So-

Dan Beecher Kinda, that's, that's kinda cool.

Dan McClellan So the, the name may even predate the Judahite occupation of the area.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan 'Cause since they, they renamed it the City of David, so it may have been, like, a Jebusite or, or some other kind of pre-Hebrew Semitic name that was given to this, uh, site, which may be why it doesn't... It, it's kind of hard to gain kind of etymological purchase on what's going on there. Um, but then later on, David brings the Ark to Jerusalem. Uh, Solomon builds the temple, and then you get the emergence, the, uh, the merging of different ideas about the Ark and divine presence and, uh, Davidic kingship and, and all this kind of stuff. And so Zion begins to take on this sense of God's holy mountain.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and even though the temple was not built in the City of David. The temple was built to the north, Mount Moriah, the larger, uh, temple mount that is the, the, you know, torso of which the City of David is the Florida.

Dan Beecher Okay .

Dan McClellan So, um, but, but Zion becomes shorthand for the place where Adonai dwells. And so-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... you begin to, uh, see it used that way as, uh, kind of a way to refer to the presence of God. And this, and this leads to what some people have called Zion theology, which is this idea that because God dwells there, Zion is special, it's protected, uh, it's not going to be harmed. Uh, and you see this in some of the Psalms, maybe in, in Isaiah, um, Jerusalem cannot fall. And, you know, it, it, it's an idea that is, is kind of mocked, uh, in public discourse today, this idea that, uh, you know, "This is, this ship is unsinkable," kind of stuff. Um-

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah. I j- I... Famously, Jerusalem ki- kind of fell-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, a, a time or two, so.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yeah, every, every time somebody's like, "God is with us, we cannot be defeated," that is usually- ... the sign for somebody to be defeated. Um-

Dan Beecher Somebody's gonna be playing Taps pretty soon.

Dan McClellan Yes, they're gonna go down with the ship. Um, like, uh, what's her name, Dido? Who, who did not go down. No, she did go down with the ship. Dang it.

Dan Beecher Ah.

Dan McClellan I screwed that one up, but, uh, um, other 90s, other, uh, late Gen Xers or, or elder Millennials will know what I was trying to get at. Um, but then the exile obviously happened, and s- and so Zion theology gets busted, which doesn't mean, okay, we throw it out the window, we get rid of it entirely. It means we renegotiate it.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, we, uh, rewired it. Ha. Ha. Ha. I, I don't even know how the, uh, the Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor grunts work anymore. But, um, so-

Dan Beecher All your references, so, uh, so contemporary, so- ... so hip and now.

Dan McClellan Hey, if anybody's topical, it's, it's me.

Dan Beecher That's right.

Dan McClellan Um, so yeah. I was gonna make some, uh, uh, "you might be a redneck" jokes too- ... but, um, just, just because, you know, that's what everybody's talking about these days. Um, so you have this... When you have a temple that God inhabits, and God is the highest god, uh, if that temple falls, you've got to rationalize how that happens, and usually you, you've got a few options. One option is to say, "Well, our God lost." Usually you don't like that option.

Dan Beecher That, it's, it's less appealing, for sure.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes. Um, another option is to say, "Okay, God is upset with us, and God abandoned the temple." And without that protection, then it was just a, a regular old building, and you know-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... you can knock it over. So, uh, that's, that's generally what you do. Uh, and then the, in the Hebrew Bible, they went a step further, where they were like, "It's not just that God abandoned it and, and, um, enemies destroyed it. It's that God brought the enemies in to destroy it. It was God's plan all along."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But because God temporarily abandoned Zion, the Zion theology, uh, has to be, it has to become more symbolic.

Dan Beecher It has to be updated, yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It has to be, uh, something that we are yearning for, a return to, uh, innocence, just like the commercials that you, uh, w- would hear in your dreams because you fell asleep on the, uh- ... uh, the couch with the TV on, and then you had some Enya, um, going when you woke up. But, uh, when the Second Temple is being built, um, you get, Zion kind of expands its scope. It now becomes a lot more stuff. And today, Mount Zion is actually the name of one of the hills in Jerusalem.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, one to the west a little bit, which is the, uh, kind of the hill that overlooks the western side of the Valley of Hinnom, uh, the Valley of Hinnom.

Dan Beecher What's the, uh, what's the rocky outcrop situation there? Pretty good?

Dan McClellan Uh, it's not, it's not incredibly rocky, but-

Dan Beecher Oh. Oh

Dan McClellan ... uh, one of the very interesting features, uh, if, if it becomes possible to return to this part of the world, uh, uh, recreationally-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... um, at some point in the future, there are, um, there are some stone steps going up Mount Zion that have been uncovered that have been dated to, uh, the first century CE.

Dan Beecher Oh, interesting.

Dan McClellan And so a lot of scholars would suggest that if Jesus was brought to Caiaphas, whose palace might have been located on Mount Zion, that those steps, he would've been dragged up those steps, so.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So that's always a fun place to visit, uh, if, uh, you happen to be in the area. Right now- Don't be in the area.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, there are bad things happening. Um, but Zion becomes increasingly symbolic. Uh, the whole world could be Zion because God's presence is there. Uh, within the Latter-day Saint tradition, you know, you have this idea that Zion is the pure in heart. Mm-hmm. So wherever the pure in heart will be, there Zion- ... is. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, you know, the-

Dan Beecher There's a whole history with the, with the Latter-day Saint tradition of like- Yeah ... Zion being Jackson County, Missouri, and then not that anymore. They... I mean, it's the same thing. There was... They... Like, literally, it's, uh, the... That's interesting that it's so parallel to, uh, you know, there was an exile. The, the, the Mormons were exiled from Missouri. They were literally given the boot. Yeah. And then, uh, and then suddenly the concept of Zion became far more portable.

Dan McClellan A lot more s- a lot more flexible and a lot more portable, yep. Um-

Dan Beecher And, uh, and then it came here to Salt Lake. So- Yeah ... uh, that, that's nice.

Dan McClellan But, but you have this, uh, throughout a lot of what's going on in the Bible, you have this hope of restoration, of return. Mm. And Zion is, is one of the main foci of, of that idea- Right ... where Zion is now this cosmic kind of God's presence city, the new Jerusalem, all this kind of stuff. We want to return to the way things were, and that will be our ultimate return to Zion. Uh, so it, it, it basically is a specific location that became associated with God's presence, began to spread out a little bit. Uh-oh, there's an exile. Now, if we want to maintain this concept, it's gotta be made a little more mobile, a little more flexible. We've gotta renegotiate what we understand Zion to be. It becomes more symbolic. It becomes a little more eschatological. It becomes a little more cosmic. It's becomes this thing that we are constantly reaching for. So, uh, there's, there's a saying, uh, next year in Jerusalem- Right ... which is kind of this perpetual hope that maybe next year, uh, this will all, uh, be resolved, and everything will return to the way it was supposed to be, and Zion is, is a part of that. So, uh, we could, you know, I, maybe... I'd have to have my friend Ben Park come on the show to talk about Zion within Mormonism 'cause he's got a whole book on, on, um, American Zion is what the book-

Dan Beecher Right, right ...

Dan McClellan is called. Uh, but yeah, he, he would be able to talk more about how complex it gets within LDS tradition. But, but yeah, it is parallel. We, we have the, the events of our times have to, uh, they, they force us to kind of renegotiate how we're representing our relationship to God, what God wants from us and, and, um, you know, our spatiality and, and all that kind of stuff, so.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So where is Zion? Zion is wherever you want it to be.

Dan Beecher It's a s- so, like, you know, it starts as a thing. It starts as a, as, as a, as a stronghold, and then it becomes a, a bigger thing. It becomes a temple. It becomes a city. Uh, or... So I mean, w- I... Did we get to it being the city of Jerusalem? 'Cause, because- Yeah ... I believe that that's what we talked about on the episode a couple weeks ago, was that- Yeah ... in that particular case, Zion was the city of Jerusalem.

Dan McClellan Yeah, because when, once it gets to the point where Zion is, is the where God dwells- Right ... in, in the temple, that kind of becomes a metonymy for the city of Jerusalem. So the city of Jerusalem is the body of which the temple is the beating heart.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so Zion kind of represents, can represent all of it, and it's used poetically, uh, in parallelism, uh, where you got Jerusalem and Zion, and Zion and Jerusalem and, and things like that. So- Right ... um, and, and I imagine there are probably some more, uh, expansive poetic uses where it's, it's, um, representing Israel as, as a whole, either as a territory or as a people, but I have... I didn't look any of that up, so. Right. Um, but yeah, that's, that's, uh, what Zion is.

Dan Beecher But it-

Dan McClellan It's also a national park that has some wonderful stuff. Right. Uh, don't, don't go on Angels Landing if you, uh, don't have good shoes, though. 'Cause-

Dan Beecher Yeah, that's true. Uh, and don't go if you're afraid of heights either.

Dan McClellan That too.

Dan Beecher Um, I... Zion, it also becomes... Wait a minute. There's one more.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher I think there's one more.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher Because does it not become kind of the people, uh, of Israel? It's not... Like, rather than, rather than just Jerusalem, or i- is it, doesn't it also at some points become the, the, the, the people of Jerusalem?

Dan McClellan Uh, I... That's... I'm used to hearing that, um, within LDS discourse.

Dan Beecher Oh, really?

Dan McClellan Um, yeah. But, um-

Dan Beecher Less, less that, less so in, in biblical stuff?

Dan McClellan I... Surely, surely Zion is personified.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Uh, because Zion as a city, it's, it's feminine in Hebrew. Yeah. And so it becomes personified, and so sometimes you get references to Zion as a daughter, uh- Right ... or something like that.

Dan Beecher I remember

Dan McClellan that. Or you get, you get references to, uh, the people as the children of Zion. Um, and so I, I... Almost certainly Zion, when it's personified, can be used as metonymy for the people as well.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Um, uh, let me see if... 'Cause, 'cause you have references where God will talk to Zion, but is talking to the people.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, so, so that could be metonymy, where the city is representative of the people.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Or Zion could have taken on, uh, representation of, uh, the people themselves. So yeah, I'm sure that, uh- ... that is in use, uh, in, in different places.

Dan Beecher There's, there, you know, we've been talking about the sort of the LDS, uh, traditions y- surrounding that word. There's another modern usage of that word that we've been kind of avoiding.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher Which, which is the ism. Uh-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Which I, I, I, I, I don't wanna get too deep into the weeds of Zionism, uh, uh, except to say that it can be, that, that, that that has become a flashpoint of a, of a word. Uh, and I think it means different things to different people.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And it's become troubling. So, uh, w- do you have a... Do you feel competent to, to talk a little bit about Zionism, uh, as it is used in, in, in modern, uh, Judaism, uh, and as, as it relates to-

Dan McClellan Well-

Dan Beecher ... Israel or, or should we avoid that?

Dan McClellan I would feel more comfortable... I, I think we ought to avoid it largely because I would feel more comfortable talking about problems with Christian Zionism, particularly among evangelicals.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Uh, I am well out of my lane to talk about, uh, Zionism within Judaism. Uh, although I, I would say the notion that, uh, anti-Zionism is fundamentally anti-Semitic is, is phenomenally problematic.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Uh, because it is, it is trying to use a, an, a political ideology as a proxy for, uh, a very broad and diverse group of people.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so the, it, and, and this gets to kind of the personification of Zion and, and its use as metonymy for all the people and all that kind of stuff. So, uh, usually Zionism these days, uh, is collecting a, a set of positions regarding the relationship geopolitically of the nation of Israel to the other nations around it. Uh, and w- which is not about the Jewish people qua people so much as it is about, uh, political concerns.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, and so I, I would just suggest that Christian Zionists just leave it alone. Uh, Christian Zionism is, is incredibly harmful and, and in my opinion also itself rather anti-Semitic because it is treat- it's using folks who are, are committed to this particular political ideology as props basically. "You're pawns in our eschatological game, and we support you because we know what's coming next."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, and they're, and, and those Jewish folks don't come out on the winning end of, uh-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... of th- that event. So, uh, I think, uh, Christian Zionism is, is phenomenally problematic, and that's the only one I feel at all qualified to, to speak on. Um, although I will say the overwhelming majority of my friends who are Jewish and colleagues of mine who are Jewish would probably identify as, uh, as anti-Zionists. Uh, and so-

Dan Beecher Yeah, I just think, I, I will say that a- as just sort of a caution, if you don't genuinely understand all of the nuances that are, that surround that word, uh, just avoid it. Just don't, don't start talking ab- don't call a group of people Zionists because they have a political id- ideology. I don't know. I j- like if you don't understand it, uh, I would s- I would... Because it can be, it, it, it can get you in a mess.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, and, and a mess that causes pain to a lot of people, so.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Those are bad messes.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, uh, it's an interesting word. And, and, oh, yeah, uh, there was one more thing I did wanna ask. Uh, you know- ... we've been talking about, uh, the use of the word Zion in, uh, Old Testament.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher And it is a Hebrew word. Does it come up-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... in the New Testament at all?

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher Does that, does that word-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... or is it-

Dan McClellan Yeah, we do have, uh, Zion comes up, uh, a couple of times. I think there's a reference to Mount Zion at least-

Dan Beecher Oh, okay

Dan McClellan ... uh, in the New Testament. Let me, let me, uh, do a quick search. I got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven occurrences of Zion in the New Testament.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, Matthew 21:15, where we're quoting the prophecy of, uh, of the king riding in on the, the donkey. "Tell the daughter of Zion, 'Look-

Dan Beecher Ah

Dan McClellan ... your king is coming to you.'"

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, John 12:15, same thing. "Don't be afraid, daughter of Zion. Look, your king is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt." Uh, Romans 9:33, "As it is written, see, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall." So we got another quotation. Romans 11:26, "And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, out of Zion will come deliverer." The deliverer, I assume that's supposed to say. Yes, the deliverer. Hebrews 12:22, "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering." Uh, 1 Peter, again we're quoting scripture, 2:6, "See, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone." And then Revelation 14:1, "Then I looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion."

Dan Beecher Okay. There you go. Uh, fascinating stuff. I'm, I, I, we know the word now. Uh, I feel- ... I feel competent at very least in the biblical use of that word.

Dan McClellan Yes. Hopefully we have c- caused the waters to muddy a bit. And you, but you understand now the, the complexities a little better.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, and that's what learning is, is realizing it's not as simple as you wanted it to be.

Dan Beecher Right. It's not one thing.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher It's a bunch of things.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher All right, friends. Well, thank you so much for joining us. If you would like to become a part of making this show happen, uh, we would really encourage you to become a patron if you can. W- we're, it's, look, the show's free. You don't have to. But if you would like to become a part of, uh, the team, as it were, head on over to patreon.com/dataoverdogma where you can get access to an early and ad-free version of every episode, as well as you can get, uh, the patrons-only content over there. And that's always fun. Uh, we do that every week, so that's, that, that's our, our commitment to you, our patrons. Feel free to give us five stars on the various places you can find to give us five. Uh, don't give, don't bother giving us one. That's not necessary at all. Um, but also you can, uh, you can like, comment, subscribe in the places where you can do that. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing our show. Thanks to Sam for being our producer, and thanks to all of you all for tuning in. We'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.