God Vows to Destroy Everything — Then Changes His Mind

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation. Aboot the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Was that a Canada Day, uh, celebration you just-

Dan McClellan I mean, just a, just a little bit of a, of a Canadian- ... reference. Just a nod to our, our, uh, brethren and sistren in the North.

Dan Beecher We are recording this very early. It, it, it's... We're, we're now currently between Canada Day and, uh, Independence Day here in these United States. Mm. For you and I, all of our listeners are well beyond that.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, so there you go. Anyway, uh, what we're gonna be talking aboot today is, uh, uh, we're doing a chapter and verse. Uh, we're covering a, a whole book.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We're getting through Zephaniah, and, uh, and what a book it is. Uh, it, it's a rollicking good time. Yeah. So I think we should just dive right in to chapter and verse. All right, Dan. Zephaniah- Zephaniah ... it's, it's three chapters long. So, uh- Yeah ... tolerable, not the worst thing in the world. Uh- Yeah,

Dan McClellan you can get through this in a weekend. And that's, and that's if you are very, very slow at reading. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, if you're, if you're extremely slow. Uh- Yes ... otherwise, you can do it in, uh, in easily in a single sitting- Yes ... uh, which I did. And, uh, but I warn you, it hits hard. This one comes at you fast- Yeah ... and it comes at you mean, right out the- ... right out the gate. Yeah,

Dan McClellan Zephaniah was not slow-playing the, the point here. He was, uh, is, he was like, "Look, I'm Zephaniah. Anyway," and, uh, God comes in, "I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth-" Yeah ... "says the Lord." Like, he's-

Dan Beecher It's a bit rough. It's a bit rough.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes. Uh, Zephaniah is, uh, he does not have the kid gloves on. Um, which is, uh, like, his, the name Zephaniah, the ia at the end, uh, just in case you weren't aware, when you see that at the end of Biblical names, particularly in the Hebrew Bible, Old Testament, that indicates a version of the divine name.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, so the tetragrammaton. It's, it's a slightly shortened version of the tetragrammaton.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan And so whatever comes before is usually going to be some kind of verb. Uh, a lot of names in ancient Hebrew were, were sentences or clauses.

Dan Beecher So this, this is the equivalent to names that end in el, like Daniel- Mm-hmm ... which is our name- Mm-hmm ... or something. It- it's a theophoric name. I know the word, even.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, I've, I've been doing this show for a minute.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher Uh, okay, I did not know that about the ia thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Um-

Dan McClellan And,

Dan Beecher um- ... which is good because, uh, then it, then I understand that that reference is not just Zephaniah, but his grandpa Gedaliah, and his grandpa, or, or his dad Amariah, uh, and his dad Hezekiah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Right. They all have Yahwistic theophoric elements in, in their name.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, uh, Zephaniah, uh, the meaning there is, uh, like, the Lord covers, hides, protects- Oh ... something like that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, now, it's, there are a lot of places in the Hebrew Bible where the name is like an editorialization on the role of the individual in the story. So- Sure ... like in, in Ruth, we have, uh, the Mahlon and Chilion, which, which means sickly and frail.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and that's kind of a dead giveaway that they are not long for this- ... this Moabite soil.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, they are about to rejoin it. Uh, but I don't know that this, uh, has much to do with the message that Zephaniah is offering in these three chapters. Uh, part of the 12 minor prophets. Now, that is not a, a value judgment.

Dan Beecher It feels like one.

Dan McClellan It does kind of feel like that when w- when we call them the lesser prophets, the minor prophets. Um-

Dan Beecher Is that just a reference to they're shorter books?

Dan McClellan Yes, they are shorter books.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So the, the Book of Isaiah has 66 chapters.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan Jeremiah's got dozens- ...

Dan Beecher a major prophet ...

Dan McClellan of chapters. W- yes, yes. But then you get to Zephaniah who has three. You get to Haggai. Uh, you get to these shorter ones, and-

Dan Beecher Can, can I call them the merciful prophets? The, the, the, the easy reader prophets? The- But- ... the Reader's Digest prophets?

Dan McClellan But basically, you have a scroll just for the minor prophets.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So, so that, that's the reason there was one title for these 12, is because they fit on a scroll roughly the same size as the single scroll that would've held the Book of Isaiah. So you have the Isaiah scroll, you have the minor prophets scroll.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, um, and that, and that collection, the, uh, the inclusion of all these together goes all the way back to antiquity. Okay. Uh, so, so we-

Dan Beecher Let me, let me get a, a sense of situating this. Now- Okay ... verse one of the first chapter of Zephaniah says, uh, you know, it, it gives, it gives that history, that familial history going back to Hezekiah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then it says, "In the days of King Josiah, son of Amon of Judah." Now- Right ... we've talked about Josiah. Um, i- is this... I, I don't kn- I never know how accurate those things are, whether this is- Yeah ... uh, whether this actually happened in the time of Josiah, or if we can't reliably say that. So where are we at with this?

Dan McClellan Um, there are, there are a lot of scholars who would suggest that this probably originates in, uh, something that was, that was offered by one of our itinerant prophets toward the, uh, the end of the 600s BCE, or, or more likely the beginning of the 500s BCE. So w- probablement around the time of Josiah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, but probably late in the career of Josiah when the writing was on the wall, and, uh, we knew this, this kind of thing was coming. Now, uh-

Dan Beecher Knew which kind of thing was coming?

Dan McClellan The destruction of, uh, Jerusalem and the temple- Okay ... which is what is being prophesied here, so.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, but, uh, at the same time, these texts would have been transmitted by schools, groups that were, that were dedicated to these prophets or to particular movements. And in the centuries that followed, they would've been edited. And so we can't say for sure exactly what goes back all the way and what m- might've been added later. Because if you've got a text from before the Babylonian exile that is like, "Hey, guys, I'm gonna exile you," that becomes, uh, you know, that's hot stuff. That's good stuff.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan And then, uh, if, if you have an opportunity to, you know, maybe something happens during or, uh, you know, the, the end of the exile, maybe you have an opportunity to add something to that, that makes your own generation feel like, "Oh, we're a part of this, too." Like, y- you know, the, the, "I, uh, but, uh, in the end I will bring you back," kind of, um, prophecy of, um, of wheel or the, the good things promise. Uh, you know, you tack that on there, and then that makes the, the prophecy come full circle. You know, yeah, prophesied the, the exile, but also prophesied the return. So, uh, so the- it's likely that this has been edited in, in later centuries as well.

Dan Beecher Okay. So, uh- Yeah ... yeah. I mean, it, it does feel like if... I, I don't know. Y- it's, it's fascinating to me because it does start off with literally, "I will utter- I will kill everything." Uh- ... and that is the entire first chapter is just how much the Lord is going to kill everything and everybody. And-

Dan McClellan Yep

Dan Beecher ... let me just name a few of the things- Yeah ... but also everything. Which feels a little, it feels redundant.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, you can, you can stop with everything. But then it, but then it, like, leaves some carve-outs for, uh, for some stuff. So what are we doing here? Why, why are we saying, "Everybody," like, "I'm- I, the Lord, am going to kill all... I will sweep away humans and animals. I will sweep away birds of the air and fish of the sea. I will make the wicked stumble. I will cut off humanity from the face of the earth," says the Lord. That's pretty extreme.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and that goes beyond what actually happened with the, the invasion and the destruction of Jerusalem and all that kind of stuff.

Dan Beecher It would seem, the evidence would seem like, yeah, maybe some of the things survived. Yeah. The,

Dan McClellan it is a bit of an exaggeration, but the point there is to kind of treat your existence in Jerusalem and Judea as kind of a microcosm. And so to say, you know, all of Judea was, was captured, Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple was destroyed, uh, a bunch of our pe- excuse me, a bunch of our people were exiled from, you know, your perspective, where the scope of your awareness doesn't really go much beyond your everyday life and, and what you can see, that seems like the whole world. Um, the reminds me of a, of a line, a, a foreboding line from the, The Death of Superman, uh, narrative arc from back in the early '90s where, uh, the Cyborg says to Superboy, "It's not the end of the world, it's just the end of your world."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, so the, uh, yeah, y- this is rhetorical exaggeration, but it is intended to kind of increase the, the impact of, of this warning and this prophecy, and say, "It's all coming to pieces. It's all burning down. It's, we're getting rid of everything."

Dan Beecher And it does, it does flash on some stuff that we've seen before from, uh, from this, the Josiah era- Uh-huh ... where, where we're talking about, uh, the, "I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal and the names of the idolatrous priests, those who bow down on the roofs to, uh, to the host of the heavens, those who bow down and swear to the Lord, but also swear by Milcom, uh, those who have turned back." So I mean, again, we're indic- we're, we're in that place where we're indicating that people are still worshiping both, uh, their god, and then, uh, these other gods are also interspersed among the worship of the people. Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and this is kind of your, your stock anti-idolatry, anti-other-god rhetoric that- Yeah ... uh, we see in a lot of the other prophets. And, and this became kind of the main, uh... This was the, the main accusation that was leveled against the people as a way to account for why the, uh, the Babylonian exile happened. It was- Right ... all this bad stuff happened, and then everybody was like, "See? I told you you shouldn't have been baking the cakes for the mother of heaven or the- Right ... queen of heaven." Uh, that's... And then that, because of how rhetorically useful it is, that then becomes the main thing that everybody's gonna hammer on. It was like- Right ... "Yeah, it was, it was definitely, uh, the, uh, praying to the hosts of heaven on the rooftop. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was definitely the worship of Baal and Milcom. It was definitely-"

Dan Beecher When we say the hosts of heaven, because this comes up a couple times, the hosts of heaven, and then later the Lord of hosts- Uh-huh ... is a phrase that's used.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And I realized I've heard that a bunch of times and never really bothered to understand- ... what the Lord of hosts means.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes.

Dan Beecher And suddenly, like, it occurred to me, like, what it could mean. So what, what is your understanding of what that means?

Dan McClellan So the Hebrew word is saba, and it means host in the sense of army.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So the, to say the host of heaven is to refer to the army of heaven, which would be the, all the marshaled deities that are the stars and the sun and the moon and the planets and the asteroids and all that kind of stuff. All of the celestial bodies were understood to be, in some sense, divine and to be identified with certain gods. And so Adonai is Lord of hosts because Adonai is sovereign over the entire host of heaven.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so it's interesting that... And, and there's a whole, um, you know, pantheon that, that has developed around this, because if you go to Deuteronomy 4:19, you have the warning, uh, you know, "Lest you, when you look up into the heaven, heavens, worship the, the sun, the moon, the stars, all the host of heaven, which have been given to the nations, but you're not allowed to worship them." So, uh, we have to understand God as sovereign over them, and they serve a purpose. They are subordinate to God, and they serve a purpose, but, uh, you're not allowed to worship them if you're a part of the house of Israel.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan They're for the other nations to worship. If you worship them, that's super, super bad. And, and also in Deuteronomy, you're not supposed to worship Adonai in the same way that the other nations worship their deities, the host of heaven. And you can go back further in time, and you get Deuteronomy 32:8 and 9, where Elyon, the Most High, divides up the peoples according to the number of the bene elohim, the children of God, and Adonai's per- por- bl, bl, bl. Adonai's portion is his people, Jacob, his inherited allotment or allotted share or whatever. And so in, in that iteration of this tradition, Adonai is not the one who distributed the gods to the nations. Uh, it is Elyon, the Most High, who distributes the nations to the gods-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... with Adonai getting Israel. So, uh, so you see a few different kind of chronological phases of this idea of the host of heaven. Um, and there's a, there's a book called the, um, Reconsidering the Concept of Revolutionary Monotheism. Uh, Beate Pongratz-Leisten was the editor of that book, and she's got a, an essay in the book about, um, the astralization of gods. There's another book called, oh, f- shoot, The God of Israel, and there's an essay in there about the de-deification of the gods, which has to do with identifying them as stars rather than as, as real gods. But it's a whole complex thing.

Dan Beecher It's a whole

Dan McClellan thing. But I, I don't even remember where we are. We're in the Book of Zephaniah, right. So-

Dan Beecher We are. We are. And I, I wanted to move on to the great day of the Lord. Yeah. Uh, this is verse 14. We're still in chapter 1.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher W- uh, "And the great day of the Lord is near, near and hastening fast."

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher What is the great day of the Lord?

Dan McClellan So this would kind of be, um, eschatology before there was eschatology.

Dan Beecher Um- Yeah, it feels eschatological.

Dan McClellan Eschatological, yes. Um, and it would even cause some scatology in, uh- ... in some people's pants, no doubt. But, um, the, the interesting thing here is usually the, the, the great and dreadful day of the Lord is when God comes to judge God's enemies and defeats all of Israel's enemies. And, and i- many times when, when it's talked about, it's talked about as a good thing, at least for the righteous. And, and here the, uh, a lot of people are, are getting their comeuppance-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in and outside of Israel. So- Yeah,

Dan Beecher it's pretty rough.

Dan McClellan Yeah, "That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of trumpet blast and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the lofty battlements. I will bring such distress upon people that they shall walk like the blind because they have sinned against the Lord. Their blood shall be poured out like dust and their flesh like dung." So there's the scatological part of the-

Dan Beecher Boom.

Dan McClellan ... of the prophecy. Yeah, "Their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord's wrath. In the fire of His passion, the whole earth shall be consumed, for a full, a terrible end He will make of all the inhabitants of the earth." So it seems, again, like the author is, is getting out a little a- ahead of their rhetorical skis.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan They are, um, like, "Everybody gets it."

Dan Beecher Everybody. And then, yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, "Everybody? Everybody." Okay, not everybody.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, be- and you, the, the book has three different sections. You have the pronouncements of judgment against Jerusalem and Judah, and then you have, uh, once you get into chapter two, you have oracles against the nations.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Oh yeah, and also Jerusalem.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh-

Dan Beecher You think you're getting away with this, Moab?

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's like-

Dan Beecher You're not getting away with this

Dan McClellan ... we're just, we're just piling the nations on top.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and then, uh, the last segment, which is the last, uh, several verses of chapter three, are announcement of, of Jerusalem's restoration. So it's like, "Jerusalem, you suck. I'm gonna destroy you. You're gonna get it so bad. But ultimately, things will be okay for you in the end." And it is a, a, yeah, it is a very, very stark contrast. It's like-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... "Let's take 40 verses to grind you into the dust, and then we'll give you 12."

Dan Beecher And then just-

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher And then suddenly it's... A- and it, it is kind of a jarring turnaround because it goes from, "I'm gonna kill everybody. Every, you know, blah, blah, blah. All of these cities, all of these countries, all of these kingdoms are razed to the ground." You'll be, uh, well, you know, the, your city- ... is gonna be a pasture for sheep now.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Oh. Ha ha ha ha. And then it says, "Sing aloud, O daughter Zion." Yeah. "Shout, O Israel." I also realized, I didn't know, I, as I was reading this, it's so funny how many things are so common I've heard so many times that I don't realize I don't know what they mean.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher Zion, I don't, I, like, I don't really know what that is. I've always-

Dan McClellan That ought to be, we ought to do a segment on Zion. Yeah. Because it is used in a variety of different ways. But I, I think here the idea is, uh, the, is Jerusalem, basically.

Dan Beecher Yeah. I, it, it-

Dan McClellan It's another name for Jerusalem ... it

Dan Beecher refers to daughter Zion and then daughter Jerusalem. So I- Yeah ... I, I wondered if they were the same thing, but. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, so maybe this has been edited. You know, maybe- ... 'cause I, I, I can't imagine Zephaniah gets through all of what he gets through, and now he's beet red. He's got sweat coming off the tip of his nose.

Dan Beecher Oh, it's been only-

Dan McClellan He's heaving ...

Dan Beecher fire and brimstone- Yeah ... this whole way.

Dan McClellan And then he's like, "But sing aloud."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, like, you know, people are like, "Hey, we're done listening to you, man. Um- No ... you can't, you can't turn it around on us now." But I, I do wanna point out, it, it is interesting, we have a lot of, a lot of nations and cities are named- Mm ... in chapter two, all of Israel's en- enemies. It, this is just like a, a catalog of who's who in, uh- ... the rogues' gallery of the Hebrew Bible.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, you have, you're starting with in verse four, and I'm surprised I don't see this passage used more frequently today in defending genocide, "For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become a desolation. Ashdod's people shall be driven out at noon, and Ekron shall be uprooted." And then we have the Cherethites, the Philistines. We have, uh, Ashkelon again. Uh, the, "I have heard the taunts of Moab and the revilings of the Ammonites, how they have taunted my people and made boasts against their territory. Therefore as they, as the Lord of hosts lives, Moab shall become like Sodom, and the Ammonites like Gomorrah, a land possessed by nettles and salt pits and a waste forever." And then we go on and, "Against the Cushites, uh, we're gonna destroy Assyria, make Nineveh a desolation. Herds shall lie down in it. Every wild animal of the earth, the desert owl and the screech owl shall, shall lodge on its capitals. The owl shall hoot at the window, the raven croak on the threshold." Um, lots of owls involved.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan They- They were- ...

Dan Beecher really, apparently that's a bad sign.

Dan McClellan Yeah, they didn't-

Dan Beecher If owls have moved in, you, uh, you're really, uh, you're, you're really screwed.

Dan McClellan Yeah, they didn't really like the owls very much. But, but let's, when we do kind of turn the tables on the audience, there's something interesting here, because we've already heard, uh, all of the inhabitants of the earth are gonna, uh, die.

Dan Beecher Right. And by inhabitants of the earth, we mean that small little part of the earth that was just- Yeah ... listed here. It's just like-

Dan McClellan And we've, w- we've rattled off the names of all of Israel's enemies, and Judah's gonna get it, too.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And Jerusalem. But then it says, "At that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech- Yeah ... that, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord." So the idea is all the nations are going to be converted to, uh, following the God of Israel. But didn't we just kill them all? Yeah. And, um, so it, you know, it's, it's very rhetorical, but this is kind of what we get in Deutero-Isaiah as well. Uh, you know, all the nations will, will come to the house of the Lord, go up to the mountain of the Lord, and all this kind of stuff. "For from beyond the rivers of Cush, my suppliants, my scattered ones shall bring my offering. Um, and on that day you shall not be put to shame because of all the deeds by which you have rebelled against me." So it's like death, death, death, death. You shall not be put to shame for- Right ... all of the things that you did bad, that I early said- Yeah ... earlier said I was gonna kill you for.

Dan Beecher It's death, death, death, death. Oh, you little scamps. I can't- Yeah ... stay mad at you.

Dan McClellan And then, uh, "They shall take refuge in the name of the Lord." Here, maybe Zephaniah, the Lord protects, the Lord hides. "The remnant of Israel, they shall do no wrong and utter no lies, nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths. Then they will pasture and lie down, and no one shall make them afraid." And then we get, "Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion. Shout, O Israel. Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter Jerusalem. The Lord has taken away the judgments against you." Now, this is where, you know, we should be like, "Because of Jesus." Right. That's why, that's why God changes their mind. Obviously, Jesus is nowhere in here. It is God's long-suffering and mercy that results in, ultimately, their wrath being-

Dan Beecher Well, and that was- ... extinguished ... one of my questions, was is there a, is there any kind of messianic concept, uh, at this time? Had there, because, uh, was, was there an idea of a single messiah who would come? 'Cause it doesn't seem to be present in this at all.

Dan McClellan No, there's no individual who's going to facilitate this. No- Yeah ... no person represents the, the, the grand pivot towards, um... And there's noth- no event either. It's just bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Good, good, good, good. Um, so-

Dan Beecher Now that, now that you're all killed, you've learned your lesson, and I'll, and I'll be nice to you again.

Dan McClellan But, but this is kind of the pattern in so many of the, the prophets, the, the Major and the Minor Prophets, is, uh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and then we're gonna, we're gonna close it off with a little wheel. Yeah. So it's gonna be good in the end, but most of it is, uh, just- ... really haranguing the people. And, and this is what makes me wonder if it's not a pr- an editorial, um, artifact.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan If it's not the prophets probably the whole time were just out there wagging their finger at everybody saying, "God's gonna, uh, really tear us a new one for, uh, all of these things that you're doing." And then couple generations down the road when they have all suffered and they are in exile, or maybe coming out of exile, or, or at least hoping they'll come out of exile, maybe they're like, "Can we put a part at the end about things getting better?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, because the, you know, the, the criticism sandwich of, uh, of say, say something positive, give your constructive criticism, say something positive, you know, you don't get the first part of it.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan You don't get the bottom piece of bread on this sandwich.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan This is- This is an open-faced sandwich ...

Dan Beecher it's an open-faced sandwich, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. But, um, that, it doesn't really make sense to me as the whole warning where he's like, "Ah, but God will love you in the end." 'Cause then what's the, what's the ultimate message? Everybody's like, "Oh, so we're good? We're good."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "We just gotta wait it out."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "We're good." Okay.

Dan Beecher And, and well, yeah, I don't know. I, I'm, I'm a little mystified that nobody noticed that this, you know, this text was transmitted throughout, throughout time, and nobody noticed that like, yeah, there was an exile. That was pretty bad. But the promised destruction to all of these n- different kingdoms and all of this stuff, like none of that, none of that happened. What,

Dan McClellan um-

Dan Beecher Why are we still- Yeah ... why are we still, like, transmitting a text that doesn't, that, that failed in its prophecy? You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Well, and, and maybe that has to do with the rhetorical excesses. But at the same time, um, I think if this is written, when, when this was written, a lot of those nations were already gone.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan The Moabites and the Ammonites. Oh. I mean, they, they're so, they were probably around to some degree, but the nations certainly were not there anymore.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan I mean, the Edomites, they become Idumea. Uh, so they're, they're, they stick around for a while, and the, but they're not mentioned in here. And so some of the, at least some of these groups had become either, you know, they were, uh, dwindling away to nothing, or they had already been conquered by Assyria or by Babylon or something like that. So there, there might be a degree to which you're supposed to hear those names and be like, "Yeah, check, check. They're gone."

Dan Beecher Right. Oh, so, so

Dan McClellan this

Dan Beecher is-

Dan McClellan "They got what-"

Dan Beecher ... an explanation to what happened to them.

Dan McClellan Um, it could be. I mean, that's, that's one way to look at it. But at the same time, it, you know, we're not, the, the prophecy isn't coming down to us from 1000 BCE.

Dan Beecher Right, right, right.

Dan McClellan The prophecy is, is openly a prophecy from this late time period when we already know those, those folks are not there.

Dan Beecher Yeah. N- n- I'm saying it's an etiology for why they're gone or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah, it could be. It could be. Um, but yeah, there, there are a lot of, uh, prophecies like that where, uh, you know, what is, the tire is supposed to be scraped off the earth and, and never reinhabited, and it's like, well, that never happened, so. Um, and people are like-

Dan Beecher Yeah, I guess sometimes-

Dan McClellan ... "Well, you know, their, their power was mitigated for a time." I was like, "Well, that, that's not what the prophecy said."

Dan Beecher Yeah. It's a, it's just an interesting thing. Uh, I, you know, uh, it's fun to hear this sort of apocalyptic language and know that it's, like, because nobody's taking the Zephaniah and saying it's about now. You know what I mean? The way they do with, uh, with, with Revelation, where they're saying-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... "Oh, it's about-"

Dan McClellan Yeah, and, and Ezekiel and-

Dan Beecher "... 2026," or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So it's fun to see something where it, it does feel so clearly rooted in its own moment. Uh, and, and just, uh, use that as a sort of comparison text to the, uh, the, the prophets that-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... you know-

Dan McClellan 'Cause it's, it's doing the same thing

Dan Beecher ... John of Patmos or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah, it's doing the same thing that all those other folks are doing.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It w- it's just not scattered with, uh, kind of vague prophecies that we can exploit and appropriate and, and pretend are, are about today.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, it, there's just not a lot of low-hanging fruit in Zephaniah for, for anybody to, to be using. I'm sure there are folks who have used this for that.

Dan Beecher Al- although I did see an owl once. And so now I'm wondering if that's a reference, if that-

Dan McClellan I-

Dan Beecher ... if, if, if I've st- if, if it's happening.

Dan McClellan Yeah. I, I saw an, I was on a, a drive. Uh, somebody would, would say this was a, um, an ominous sign. I was, when I was driving home from Crested Butte, from Colorado, I was driving next to a, a river, and at one point the road turns right to go over the river, and there was a barrier along the side of the bridge. And right on the end, I could see something large poking up, um, on the top of the, the post where the barrier began, and I was like, "Is that a bird? I think that's a bird. That's a big bird." And as I got closer, I was like, "Definitely a bird." And right as I was rounding the corner passing this post, uh, a great horned owl just turned its head all the way around and stared right at me. And I, I, like first one I'd ever seen in the wild.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan I, I was like-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... "That is awesome. That is probably, uh, as the ancient Mesopotamian, uh, omen list said, uh, unfavorable." Uh, but-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Well, I mean, well, it probably indicated the desolation of Nineveh-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... is what I would say.

Dan McClellan Yes. Well, it was-

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan ... it was lodging on a fence post and not in the capitals.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan So it was not quite as severe.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But, um, yeah, it did, I did have a little bit of stress making it to the next charging station in time. So I was down to, like, 5%. So maybe- ... great horned owl on a fence post means you better get to that charging station quick.

Dan Beecher M- means you better hope that the-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... the, that your EV lasts.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Turn the air down a little bit. Get a couple more miles out of that charge.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right. Well, friends, that's it for Zephaniah. Thanks so much for joining us. Uh, if you would like to, uh, if, if you enjoyed this, share it with somebody. We always appreciate that.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher You can also give us five stars on wherever you, uh, you might find five stars to give. Um-

Dan McClellan Certainly Yelp has that option.

Dan Beecher Are we on Yelp? I don't know if we're on Yelp.

Dan McClellan We're not.

Dan Beecher If you're on Apple Podcasts or, or Spotify or something, you might be able to find some stars to give us. Uh, or you can like, comment and subscribe on YouTube if that's where you're at. If you want to support the show, you can always head over to patreon.com/dataoverdogma, sign up there, get the bonus content every week if you can, get the, get the early ad-free versions of every episode. That's always great. Thanks so much to Roger Gaudy for editing the show. Thanks to Sam, the right-hand man, for all of his work, and we'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.