Enslaved Surrogacy in the Old Testament

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan, in light of the knowledge that, uh, a potential referendum has been, well, has failed to make it on the ballot in our state?

Dan Beecher Things are good.

Dan McClellan We can, we can talk about that-

Dan Beecher Things are good, yeah ...

Dan McClellan in the, in the after party. Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's right. Uh, if you become a patron of the show, uh, you can, you can head on over to our, our patron, our Patreon and hear all about, hear us reveling in the fact- ... that, uh, some very, very bad and devious, uh, politics have, have failed.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher So that's a good thing. So- Yes ... uh, head on over there a- maybe after the show's done. Or head over there now. It's, you can do it in whatever order you wanna do it in. That's, that's on you.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Um, but today we're gonna be talking here, uh, we're gonna do a Who's That about Hagar- Mm ... uh, who is a fascinating character, and a weird story, and I have a lot

Dan McClellan of questions. Yep. So let's just

Dan Beecher dive right into Who's That? And today's Who's That, I said Hagar.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, Hagar is-

Dan McClellan Can't turn back now. You committed.

Dan Beecher That's right. That's right. We already, we already said it.

Dan McClellan Um, so

Dan Beecher Hagar is, is a slave woman. Let's, let's just sort of lay the groundwork for, for who she is and to whom she belongs, et cetera.

Dan McClellan Yeah, so she is named as, as an Egyptian.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Uh, and she is, uh, she pops up in Genesis 16. So Sarai and Abram are having trouble conceiving, and then the, uh, the text, if I recall correctly, the text just says, uh, "So anyway, she had this Egyptian slave whose name was Hagar." And I wanna look at the word for slave. It should be, it's shifcha. Yeah, shifcha, so, like, handmade female, uh, slave. She's from Egypt, and her name is probably not Egyptian.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because her name in, in Hebrew is just Hagar. Now, this, if you look at the consonants, this could be Haggar, and Haggar would mean the foreigner.

Dan Beecher Oh my gosh. Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher A little on the nose.

Dan McClellan A little bit. Bible.

Dan Beecher Come on.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, um, so this is, she's probably a literary creation, uh, not an, an actual historical person, just like Abram and Sarai are probably literary creations. But anyway, um, S- Sarai realizes, "You know, I can't have kids, but I possess property that is capable of procreation. And so Abram, why don't you, uh, go have intercourse with my slave girl, and, uh, and, you know, it'll just count as our child." And Abram, you know, is like, "Well, okay."

Dan Beecher And we should be clear, uh, this is after many years because they are old already. Yes. Uh, they, they, they live to ripe, old, old, old ages, but, like, a- a- Abram's already in his 80s, right, at this point?

Dan McClellan Uh, I believe.

Dan Beecher I think it says he's 80 s- m- I, I gotta be sorry.

Dan McClellan Well, it says at the, at the end of the chapter he was 86 years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So 86, yeah. So, so he's already, um-

Dan Beecher Not a spring chicken Yeah. Exactly.

Dan McClellan No, not by, by any stretch of the imagination.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So she is, um, she is, belongs to Sarai, and she becomes a wife of, uh, Abram. And not like a, not just you're my enslaved person that I'm going to sire children with, but a- an actual honest to goodness wife, which, uh, and the intent here, the author was probably narrating it this way- Mm ... in order that her child would be a legitimate heir of Abraham. Right.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, um, so w- we're keeping it all above board, so it's gonna be-

Dan Beecher Well, and, and it literally says that Sarai gave her to her husband- Mm-hmm ... as a wife.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So, like, that was, he didn't, he didn't just take her as a wife. Sh- this was, this was, this was sort of an anniversary present or something.

Dan McClellan Yes, uh, he was given another wife, and, uh, according to Genesis 16:4, he went in to Hagar- Wow ... which is a euphemism, uh, and she conceived, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress. And this is kind of, uh, there, there are different thoughts on, on exactly why she would suddenly be contemptuous toward her, towards Sarai- Right ... um, after having conceived. I mean, that's kind of the point- Right ... of, of, uh, what's going on here. And then at the same time, Sarai, um, gets upset. But, uh, Sarai says, "Hey, she looked on me with contempt. May the Lord judge between you and me." And, and Abram is, um, you know, he's in his post-coital, uh, whatever and is, is just like, "Hey, do what you gotta do." And, uh, the, from the NRSVue verse six he says, "Your slave is in your power. Do to your, do to her as you please." And then Sarai dealt harshly with her, so- Yeah ... she up and runs away.

Dan Beecher It does not, it does not elaborate on what dealt harshly with means.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But, uh-

Dan McClellan I'm gonna look what it says. Um, sh- sh- sh- and she- Huh. Yeah, oppressed her, humiliated her.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, violated her is a potential translation.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan But I, I can't imagine that that's what's going on in the, in the narrative. Uh, but she runs away, and then we get this interesting story. She's out in the wilderness. She's by a spring of water, and it says the Angel of Adonai found her, the spring on the way to Shur.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and we're gonna... When we get to the end of this, I'll, I'll explain why I think it's actually supposed to be Adonai themselves who has appeared.

Dan Beecher Yeah, you know, it's funny. I've been doing this show for long enough that I was like, "I know what's going on." Somebody added the word angel later.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher This was... I know how this works. I've- We've seen this before. Because, because it stops being an angel partway through. Like, it's, like, they've, they forgot to do the full find and replace on that because- And, and so the edit-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... is not complete.

Dan McClellan You've got... Yeah, you've got one dwigget, uh- ... that, that shows up. And the, um, but, uh, the, the angel says to Hagar, "Slave of Sarai," and, and notice that even the angel's like, "You belong to this woman here."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "That's your identity. Where have you come from and where are you going?" As if God doesn't know.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, she said, "I'm running away from my mistress, Sarai." The angel said, "Return to your mistress and submit to her." And then, uh, we get this statement, which is the kind of statement that you would get from God themselves, "I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then says, "Now you have conceived and shall bear a son. You shall call him Ishmael, but the Lord has given heed to your affliction. He shall be a wild ass of a man-" "... with his, with his hand against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he shall live at odds with all his kin." And this is actually, there's actually a, an interpretive, uh, debate here among some scholars what is, what is going on here with the, um-

Dan Beecher Okay. What's the debate?

Dan McClellan 'Cause... Well, the live at odds, because it, uh, literally the Hebrew is al-pane chol echav yishkon, which, which means, um, against the face of all his brethren, he will dwell. And so al-pane, does that mean he's gonna dwell opposite them, like, next to them? Like, they're on one side of the valley, he's on the other? Or is it more he's going to live, um, in contention with them?

Dan Beecher Doing battle with them or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah, so, so you have in the NRSVue, "He shall live at odds with all his kin." If you look in the King James Version, "He shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." If you look in the NET Bible, "He will live away from his brothers."

Dan Beecher Huh.

Dan McClellan So, like, there are a bunch of different ways to interpret what's going on here. Literally, the Hebrew is al-pane means over, uh, or against the face of all his brothers or brethren. So-

Dan Beecher I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say it means across the street.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher He's gonna live across the street- ... from his brothers.

Dan McClellan It's a different development. They put up a wall- ... 'cause they didn't want any of his, um-

Dan Beecher But he's got a window. It looks directly at their lawn, so he's-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... he's, he's checking 'em out. Um-

Dan McClellan The, they hit the baseball over the fence from time to time, and he comes out and yells at them, so.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Tell me about the name Ishmael. What, what does it mean?

Dan McClellan Uh, so it seems to be, uh, based on the verbal root shama, which means to hear or to hearken. And so, uh, what happens, the, um, what does the, the angel say, or God? Um, "For the Lord God has given heed to your affliction" in verse 11. Uh, let me just look. Ki shama Adonai el anyev. So yeah, shama means to, uh, to hear or to heed, so give heed to.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So it would be God has-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... has listened or God has heard-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... or something like that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, uh, so th- and this is kind of how the folk etymology... Ooh, I, I started to say a very different word. The a lot of these stories in Genesis are folk etymologies.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Where it's like, oh, this person was named this, and they tell a story that results in, "So they named him that."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and here, yeah, the idea is the Lord has given heed to your affliction, so bam, Ishmael.

Dan Beecher Okay. Uh-

Dan McClellan It's when you-

Dan Beecher I, I was hoping it meant something about wild ass of a man. Uh, but-

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But no, alas. Okay.

Dan McClellan Don't get-

Dan Beecher Why-

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. The wild ass thing was so weird to me, but okay. He's just, he's just... "Don't worry," says the Lord. "I'll, I'll make sure everything's great by giving you a son who is, who will be a jerk to everybody that he meets." Is that what that means?

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher Wild ass of a man?

Dan McClellan Well, I think the idea is w- a wild, wild ass is characterized by, um, you know, kind of recklessness, is, is, um, resistant to being, um, restrained and contained-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... and stuff like that. So I think that's probably the idea here. And, and these are supposed to be the, uh, this is supposed to be an etiology for the Arab peoples.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Um, and so th- this is a way to characterize them in-

Dan Beecher Sure

Dan McClellan ... a particular way.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And it, it's kind of a, it's not quite as, um, explicit. When, when you get down to Abraham and Lot, and Lot's, uh, two- ... daughters become the ancestors of the, the Moabites and the, and the Am- is it Ammonites or Edomites? I think it's the Ammonites. But, you know, that's like, "Hey, look at you. You all descend from incest."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, and here it's a, it's a way to say- You descend from an enslaved person.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, but there is, there is still kind of a positive aspect to this where, where God themselves is actually appearing to, to this ancestor.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, and here's where we get to that part. In verse 13, "So she named the Lord, Adonai, who spoke to her. 'You are El Roi.' For she said, 'Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?'" Now, there's something to note here as well, is, uh, the NRSVue, that's a pretty interpretive approach.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Because, uh, the name that she gives, she calls it, uh, the, the well was... What did she say? Where's verse 13? Yeah, so, uh, ba-da-da-da-da. Yeah, halom raiti acherai roi. So there are different ways to interpret that. So the King James Version says, "Has I, have I also looked after him that seeth me?" And, uh, and then, uh, the NET says, "Here I have seen one who sees me." So it has something to do with seeing.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And El Roi could mean, um, the God who sees, or it could mean the God who is seen, or something like that. It's confusing and, and some scholars suggest that it has been corrupted, that the letters have changed somehow. We're not exactly sure what it is. But verse 13 says she has been speaking to Adonai themselves.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Not the angel. And-

Dan Beecher And she names, she names him, which is an interesting thing to do.

Dan McClellan Yeah, gives a, gives God a name. Like,

Dan Beecher which...

Dan McClellan You know, uh, I mean, the gr- as the great poet said, "I got a name." Like the pine trees wi- line in the winding road, I got a name. Um, and so, uh, but, but this is just a feature of, of the literature of this time period.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and it's probably also an attempt to account for a title for God that was in circulation in this time period.

Dan Beecher Oh, sure, sure.

Dan McClellan And so it's a way to say, "That's where that name came from."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan You know how they sometimes call God El Roi? Well, that's where that came from. Uh, so there... And there's a great discussion, if you look in, uh, Ted Lewis' book, The Origin and Character of God, which is over 1,000 pages long. It's, um, yeah, it's a long book. But anyway- ... uh, there's, there's a good discussion of what's going on, um, here. So, and, so I think that's... And, and the whole visiting someone and saying, "I will greatly multiply your offspring. Here, you've conceived a s- a, a child." The announcement, the prophetic announcement of conception in the other literature from ancient West Asia, it's always the god themselves that does that. It's never a messenger.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so-

Dan Beecher Well, and yeah, as you say, by the end here, she is saying, she is, she is naming God and saying, "I, you know, I, I saw God."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher She's talking to God. She's-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... like, it's pretty clear what h- what's happening at the end, even though-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... it's an angel at the beginning.

Dan McClellan Yes. And, and so this is interesting because once we get out of the g- story of the Garden of Eden, the first person in the Bible to see God, uh, like, the, that the narrative says saw God-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, is a, an Egyptian enslaved woman.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher That is fascinating.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher A woman, a, a, a foreigner, like, all of these, all of these characteristics, a, you know, an enslaved person, yeah. D- they seem like they would be... And also, like, you know, when you say that this is sort of a, an explanatory story of where the Arab people came from, this feels like it really honors that story. Like q- like you say, it, uh, rather than the, uh, the story of Lot and his daughters, this, this is, like, th- th- this is some big honor to be bestowing on that lineage.

Dan McClellan Yes. And, and this is a reason that a lot of, um, for a long time now, uh, like, Black Christians, and particularly Black Christian women, have held up Hagar as a, a matriarch-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... because she is, uh, someone who, who gets to talk with God, and she is someone who's, who's watched over and, and was kind of, uh, done wrong in the story, but, um, is still, uh, offered a blessing and becomes the, the matriarch of, of, uh, a large group of people.

Dan Beecher Well, we've only done, we've only gotten to half of the done wrong part of the-

Dan McClellan Yes, yes

Dan Beecher ... Hagar story. So we should jump to chapter 21 and, uh-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... and, and get to the other half. Uh, and this, th- this, so, so yeah, jumping from chapter 16 to chapter 21, a lot happens in- ... in the midst of those.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, not the least of which being that Abraham is now Abraham instead of Abram, and-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... Sarai has become Sarah. Um, and you know, again, I've done this show long enough to know that probably what we have here, and I'm going to, uh, you, you can confirm or deny-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... is that there, these are different, very different stories that have all been sort of mushed and squished and, and pushed together.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, which is why different names are coming up, and which is why later we're going to have a very confusing moment, uh, a timeline thing that took me a long time to sort of parse out. But, uh, before we do that, let's, uh, let's just tell the story.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Um, because Abraham and Sarah now, uh, have conceived.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So it's, the thing that wasn't, that, that seemed impossible has now happened. They are older by a lot. This-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... it, do we, do you have a sense, how, what's your sense of how much older everybody is now?

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh.

Dan Beecher How much time has passed?

Dan McClellan No, I, well, um, at the- Uh, let's see. We're chapter 21. It's the beginning of chapter 17, it says, "When Abram was 99 years old, God appeared."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and so it's... That, what's that? 13 years later?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and then ver- chapter 21, uh, the child grew and was weaned.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so, uh, Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned, so this is, this is a couple years after that. I, I don't know-

Dan Beecher Oh, this, this says, uh, chapter... 21:5 says Abraham was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born. So-

Dan McClellan Okay

Dan Beecher ... and he was 86 when Ishmael was born.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So, so-

Dan McClellan So, um, but then in verse, uh, chapter 21, verse nine, uh, Hagar's son Ishmael is playing with Isaac.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and suddenly, uh, Sarah's like, uh, "This won't do."

Dan Beecher And s-

Dan McClellan Which-

Dan Beecher This means that Isaac is, is very, very young. A, a baby.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, or he's weaned, which means, and, and probably- ... that was a couple years, right?

Dan McClellan Yeah. I- if, if, uh... But yeah, probably, uh, I don't know, uh, how old a, a weaned child would be in this time period or, uh, if they imagine that Isaac was a, a quick learner or a slow learner, but-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, yeah. Ishmael is, is a teenager.

Dan Beecher Yeah. By this point, th- this is, this is what I, in my mind, you know, I thought, you know, he's playing with the s- the, the kid. He's an, he's a, a teenager, late teens or whatever, and he's playing-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... with the baby, and that's fine in my mind. It's later that that becomes weird and problematic.

Dan McClellan Yes, because-

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan ... Sarah, Sarah gets upset with Hagar-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and is, is like, "Get rid of her."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, um, uh, this was, and Abraham was upset about this. Abraham loves his son Ishmael. Uh, and God says, "Eh."

Dan Beecher But, but Sarah gets very sort of Melania about the whole thing and is like- ... "I want him to go away because I want only my son to have an inheritance."

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, uh, God tells Abraham, "Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for it is through Isaac that offspring shall be named for you. A- as for the son of the slave woman..." Oh, you mean Ishmael? You know he has a name. So does Hagar. "I will make a nation of him also because he is your offspring." And then we get the story, Abraham gets up in the morning, took some bread, skin of water, gave it to, A- Hagar, and then, um, puts... It says, "Putting it on her shoulder, along with the child."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So this is, this is like a 16-year-old kid. Um-

Dan Beecher Here, you climb-

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher ... up on your mom and, uh- Yeah. Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then, um-

Dan Beecher It's-

Dan McClellan ... she departs and goes into the wilderness of, uh, Beersheba. Uh, I have been to this wilderness.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan It is not hospitable.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, uh, particularly the, the wildery part of the wilderness. Um, I mean, once you get into where there are homes and stuff, great, but... Um, it runs out of water, and then it says, "She cast the child under one of the bushes." So yes-

Dan Beecher Which is just like- Like, like all of this story makes sense as long as Ishmael is little, is a baby.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher But he's not. He's big.

Dan McClellan Not according to the way the stories have been woven together.

Dan Beecher Right. Exactly.

Dan McClellan But, but it, you know, when you, when you read verse nine, where, where Ishmael is playing with, with Isaac, like decontextualized, they make it kinda sound like Isaac and, and Ishmael are about the same age.

Dan Beecher Right. 100%.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher That's how it, that's how it sound. Like this entire story, you can tell that the author is thinking of a, of a baby.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Of a, you know, maybe a two-year-old, a toddler. All right. Yeah. Because, you know, she, she chucks him under the bush, and it's just like, you don't... Th- this ki- this dude's bigger than you at this point. Like, this kid is, he's gonna last longer than you are.

Dan McClellan Okay, now hang on a second. I do wanna come back to verse nine, because I wanted to look in the Hebrew to see what it said about, um, about Ishmael playing with Isaac.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And it doesn't say play, uh, with her son Isaac. That is something that the NRSVue has interpreted into the text.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Because the verb that we have there, is that a participle? Yeah, that's a participle, um, is based on the verbal roots, uh, is close to the, the verbal roots, um, for yitzach, yitzachak, which means to laugh or to joke.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so it looks like is that a, it's a PL participle, so there are other, there... It looks like, um, it can mean to joke, to play. It can also mean to dally with or fondle.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So the, I don't know if you remember the story where, uh, it's, uh, both Abraham and, and Jacob show up, and they say, "This is not my wife. This is my sister." And then the-

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

Dan McClellan ... and then somebody sees out the window, and it says that, uh, that he's, it uses this verb. Um-

Dan Beecher He's dallying with or fondling.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, um, I'm looking at other translations. The King James version says, "Sarah saw the son of Hagar, the Egyptian, mocking."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan And that's what the NET has as well. Just

Dan Beecher mocking, not mo-

Dan McClellan Just-

Dan Beecher No, with, with no object of the mocking

Dan McClellan ... there's no object to... Yeah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, and I'm looking at a f- the NET footnote. I have criticized heavily the NET footnotes, but sometimes they, they have some good s- uh, contextual, uh, stuff to say. Um, the PL participle used here is from the same root as the name Isaac. In the PL stem, the verb means to jest, to make sport of, to play with- not simply to laugh, which is the meaning of the verb in the call. What exactly Ishmael was doing is not clear. Interpreters have generally concluded that the boy was either, one, mocking Isaac, or two, merely playing with Isaac as if on equal footing. In either case, Sarah saw it as a threat. The same participial form was used in Genesis 19:14 to describe how some in Lot's family viewed his attempt to warn them of impending doom. It also appears later in Genesis 39, where Potiphar accuses Joseph of mocking them.

Dan Beecher Huh.

Dan McClellan So, so-

Dan Beecher It is interesting. C- uh, the NRSVue does have a footnote-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... that says, uh, that just mentions, "Hebrew lacks 'with her son Isaac.'"

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Which is, that, that's a lot to add and, and have-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... that be the only footnote. It's just, "Oh-

Dan McClellan Yeah, that's a, that's a load-bearing addition right there

Dan Beecher ... we, we just, we just chunked that one in.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That was just fun for us.

Dan McClellan But I, I think that, and that's probably based on the notion that, well, the verbal root is the same.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It can mean playing, so maybe that's, that's the idea. And, and they might, the editors might have thought, "Oh, this is probably, um, ha- haplography based on homoiotheleuton, where it said that and then said 'with Isaac', but the copyist saw the end of the verb, and the end of the verb looks the same as the name Isaac, and so skipped over it or something." So lot of, lot of possibilities there, but I think the idea is still the same. It sure seems like these two kids are about the same age.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And, and so the, the competition is a little more direct.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's, it's, um, Sarah is like, "Don't like having this kid around."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Don't like that kid." Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, even if you don't have that part being, you know, b- being about him being a kid, the, it sure does seem like when Abraham puts the kid on Hagar's shoulder- ... or when A- when Abraham, yeah, goes and, when, when Hagar's in the wilderness.

Dan McClellan Yeah, just-

Dan Beecher And by the way, we should mention that the reason that she throws him under the bushes is just, and then she walks away the distance of a bow shot. It's just so that she doesn't have to watch him die.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher They're, she feels like they're about to die. She doesn't, she feels like she can't, she can't bear to watch the child die.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Which, again, not a teenager, 'cause a teenager-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... is gonna outlast a middle-aged lady, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in terms of, in terms of, you know, d- thirsting to death. How do you-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... how do you phrase that? Whatever. Anyway.

Dan McClellan Um, and yeah, she doesn't wanna, uh, see him die. The angel shows up again and, uh, says, "What's going on?" Uh-

Dan Beecher Wait, what?

Dan McClellan But says-

Dan Beecher Why, why are you mad? What's happening?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher What troubles you?

Dan McClellan Uh, "Don't be afraid, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him." Again, su- sure sounds like a kid.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like a, um, a toddler.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, "Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and came, became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother got a wife for him from the land of Egypt." So.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan "What'd you bring me, Mom?"

Dan Beecher "Got you a wife. Got you a wife." So there you go. Uh, th- and that is, that is where Arab people come from, I guess. Uh-

Dan McClellan Phew

Dan Beecher ... at least according to this. Um, I think it's a fascinating story. I love the fact that, like you point out, this is, this is the first person after Eden to talk to God directly, face to face. Uh, just a really interesting, though, like, non-consequential to s- any story.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's just, it's just sort of a-

Dan McClellan It's

Dan Beecher a- ... a side, a side note story.

Dan McClellan And ideology.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan I think that's an awful lot of what Genesis is doing, is saying, "Hey, you know tho- this thing or these people? Here's where it came from."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "Moving on."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, um, and they just cruise on past, yeah. So trying to explain how the world got to be the way it is.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, and something interesting is some of the words that are used in here, um, in reference to, like, the way that Sarah treats, Sarai treats Hagar, and, uh, and stuff like that, it parallel to how it describes the Egyptians treating the Hebrews in the Book of Exodus.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so, um, some scholars would suggest that this, this was composed maybe after Exodus-

Dan Beecher Interesting

Dan McClellan ... and in light of Exodus. So, so putting the two things parallel, an Egyptian who is enslaved to the Hebrews over and against the story where the Hebrews are exli- enslaved to the Egyptians-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... and maybe God treating one better- ... um, than the, um, in the other story, maybe that's a way of, of, uh, saying, "See? Things go better, uh, on our end." Um, maybe there's something going on there with the, with those parallels. Maybe that's just us hallucinating stuff, like some kind of chatbot. I don't know.

Dan Beecher Fair enough. Well, I think that is interesting, and we're gonna leave it at that. If you would like to go hear our other conversation, uh, and become a patron of the show and get the after party and all the fun stuff, please head over to patreon.com/dataoverdogma. Uh, otherwise, thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show. Thanks to JJ for being our producer, and we will talk to you all next week.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.