The Great Commission and the Grand Annoyance

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? You staying cool?

Dan Beecher Uh, you know what? It is not, uh, currently, uh, and we're recording this well ahead of when all the people are going to see and or hear this, but it is currently not too bad- Mm ... here in, in Utah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. We are-

Dan Beecher I, I'm glad that we're not in, uh, Europe, where folks have been sweltering. Yeah,

Dan McClellan it's gotten pretty bad. I'm, I'm heading over there next week.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, um, pretty far north, but hopefully the heat wave will have passed us by. But yeah, we were, last year I was in, I was in Italy during the heat wave.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, yeah, it's, it's been up into the mid-90s here, but today it's... Yesterday was nicer. Yesterday it was, like, low 70s.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Now it's- Just, just lovely ...

Dan McClellan 83 right now, so.

Dan Beecher Just lovely. All right. Yeah. But we've got a show to do, so let's, uh- We do. So let, let's not lallygag too much- Nope ... um, because today it's a What's That, and we are talking about the Great Commission, and proselytizing, and whether you need to be out there in the world preaching Jesus and annoying people on airplanes. So, with, uh, with that, let's just dive straight into What's That. All right. So, the Great Commission- Mm-hmm ... is what we're talking about. Uh, w- we'll expand on it, but uh, I, I guess we're starting in Matthew 28, is that right?

Dan McClellan Yes, yes. Here we have, the Great Commission, uh, is the title that is generally given for it. It's an okay commission. Uh, really. I think the, uh, you know, their, their earlier work was, was better. But anyway, th- this is the very end of the Gospel of Matthew. This is where they tie it all off with a neat little bow. Yeah. And i- this happens after the, the crucifixion of Jesus and the resurrection. Verse 16 of Matthew 28, "Now the 11 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. When they saw him, they worshiped him, but they doubted." Interesting little tidbit there. Yeah. Um, because some translations say, "But some doubted." Oh. And others say, "But they doubted." And, uh- Okay ... yeah, it's, uh, maybe- We're- ... maybe we'll do a segment where we talk about that at some point 'cause- Okay ... there are some people are, who are like, "No, they, they saw the resurrected Jesus. They can't all have-"

Dan Beecher They can't all have doubted. "...

Dan McClellan doubted." Yes, that would, that wouldn't be right. Uh, but anyway, "Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" So we're, we're riffing on, uh, Daniel chapter seven. Hmm. We've got this, uh, enthronement scene, basically. And Jesus, in 19 and 20 says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always to the end of the age." Hmm. And that is the end of the Gospel of Matthew. Thus passeth the Gospel of Matthew. So, so we get a, we get a, a nice little sign-off there with, with Jesus's command to disciple or to make disciples of all nations, so.

Dan Beecher And, and therein lies, uh, the, the grand, from, from the Great, uh, Commission to the grand annoyance because- ... oh, my gosh, I have s- I can't... Like, I can't open TikTok anymore or, you know- Mm ... or Threads without seeing somebody in public, at the gym, or on, on a park bench or- Right ... on an airplane, standing up and just yelling at passersby about Jesus and h- and, uh, you know, what, how important he is to their lives and whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah, because- So- ... 'cause we live in a world where most people aren't aware of this guy.

Dan Beecher Right, right. Yeah. You're in the United States of America.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We've heard.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We got it.

Dan McClellan I have, I have not had that happen in an airplane. I have had it happen in an airport.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan I was, I was... Oh, gosh, it was last year. I think it was coming back from one of our book events. Hmm. But I was standing by the, the luggage, um, thing, waiting for my bags and, and, you know, it was pretty significantly delayed. Everybody was just standing there waiting. And then some guy took the opportunity to start just evangelizing as loud as he could- Mm-hmm ... by luggage carousel nine in, uh, in the Salt Lake International Airport. And I happened to be standing right next to the dude when he started doing this. And what's really funny is that somebody was so amused by this, uh, this sudden public evangelizing, they took a picture, and only when they posted the picture online were they like, "That's Dan McClellan right next to him." And so... And then started sharing this, this picture far and wide. And you see me, arms crossed, just, like, boring a hole into the c- And scowling ... the luggage carousel- ... uh, with my eyes. Um, and then it was... Uh, so I, I have that, uh, that memory preserved for time-

Dan Beecher Yeah ... in

Dan McClellan all eternity in that-

Dan Beecher There you go ...

Dan McClellan person's Facebook post, but.

Dan Beecher Uh, okay. So, so is that... I guess one of my questions is- Just to start this off, I read that Great Commission. I, you know, I, I read that moment.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And Jesus is talking to 11 disciples, and in a time when no one had heard. You know what I mean? Where, where that message had been, uh, not, not spread far and wide.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher So one wonders if this was a com- Like, it's never spoken as a commission for all good Christians to go and do.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's spoken to these guys.

Dan McClellan Yeah, at least in, in the Gospel of Matthew it is. It is their commission. Uh, but usually this is understood as, as a commission that is generalizable to, to all Christians, everyone who takes up the, the cross of, uh, following Jesus. And it's been understood in different ways, uh, throughout the history of Christianity, and there, there, there are a couple things to, to note about it. The idea of, um, making disciples, it's usually represented as, uh, you know, converting people, doing missionary work.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan But to make one a disciple doesn't really... I mean, it, it means to cause one to be a pupil, which means to teach. Mm. Like, to make someone a pupil is just to create this relationship where I'm teaching someone, and so that doesn't necessarily mean conversion per se. Mm. I mean, you could, you could make the argument that it means, like, a formation of, uh, someone... You're, you're turning them into a follower of Jesus, but that has more to do with, with their actions after conversion than it d- has to do with the actual act of conversion. Um, but, but it's a short command.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And it's definitely not saying, uh, "You must take every opportunity to irritate passersby and people in public." It is... And, and it is on the national level. You know, make disciples of, of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. But it, it is taken up... Uh, you know, when you get into, like, the medieval period, and, and even before the medieval period, this is understood in, in some contexts as, as a marshal command. Like, we're gonna go into your country, we're gonna convert your king, and then your king is then going to coerce everyone in his kingdom to convert. Like, that was, that was a more direct fulfillment of, of that commission according to, uh, medieval Christians, I think.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Um- Well, it's a pretty effective way of doing it.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, you, you don't wanna be one at a timing it. You just get that one guy- Yeah ... and then he just, he just makes everybody do it. Yeah,

Dan McClellan that's the golden goose there. You want the, you want the ruler who then, uh, you know, forcibly converts everybody else.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, but yeah, this, this has become an identity marker in a lot of ways, and it has been an identity marker for a long time, but its fulfillment, I think, has taken different shapes. And so in the, uh, like, 18th and 19th centuries when we've had, we've had these great awakenings, uh, in 1700s and then in the early 1800s, and there's been this push to, to evangelize, and you've got revivals and, and all this kind of stuff, and, and now in the 20th and, and then 21st century, I think a lot of Christians feel like this is how their merit is tested.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And it's not just are, are you willing to tow the line, but fundamentally it is are you truly converted? Because if you're, if you're truly converted and you understand the stakes, and you are committed to them, then you would ostensibly be willing to just wear out your life making sure that everyone else, uh, knows what's at stake and is making good decisions in relation to what's at stake.

Dan Beecher Yeah. And that makes sense. Like, the, like, I... You know, one of the things that I see a lot online, again, is when someone posts their, you know, themselves hollering at strangers, and then someone else says, "Hey, don't do that, please." Uh, the, the frequent rejoinder is, "Except that I have to, because I genuinely care," and, you know, for so- for some of them I don't believe. I, I, I, like, for most of it I think it's about costly signaling, those kinds of things that we've- Mm-hmm ... talked about. But I, but for some I do- I honestly believe that some of them, it's, uh, to them a, a sense of, uh, I'm trying to save people- Mm-hmm ... who, from an eternity in hell or from a, you know, from whatever imagined eternity there is. I'm just trying to get them on the right side of things as they see it, and there's some nobility in that. I can honor that. It j- but it just doesn't seem like... The w- the, the way n- the ways that I know that, um, a lot of it is just the costly signaling- Mm-hmm ... is that they don't concern themselves with how effective their message is.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher They don't concern themselves with whether they're actually getting through to anyone.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's just, it's-

Dan Beecher Whether that tactic of hollering at folks is actually helpful. Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's o- it's off their plate.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's not on me anymore.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which, which demonstrates that, at least for those folks, it really isn't about saving souls as much as it is about checking the box.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan As much as it is about performing- ... the, the concern. And when it comes to the folks who are so convicted of the importance of this, I think that's kind of a situational thing. I think that's a state of mind that is pretty rare, and when it happens, I, I think it's the product of some kind of, uh... I, I think people try to gin up that. They, they try to force that, uh, that mindset.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Because... B- but at the same time, that's not a healthy mindset. If you-

Dan Beecher No

Dan McClellan ... and, and I don't think people are genuinely in that state of mind for long periods of time.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan I think it is acute, small bursts of, "Ah, I gotta get everybody saved," because that's not a sustainable state of mind-

Dan Beecher No

Dan McClellan ... for even, even-

Dan Beecher It will drive you literally insane

Dan McClellan ... even for a single day.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan You cannot sustain that state of mind, which I think means that people are intentionally putting themselves in that state of mind-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... I think as a part of the costly signaling process.

Dan Beecher Well-

Dan McClellan Because they wanna feel like this is sincere.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so they c- they kind of steel themselves, and they, they try to get in, get that, um, you know, get that feeling flowing. And, uh, and, and so I think it is something that they're doing intentionally. Or if it's just a mood that hits them from time to time-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... I think it's probably as a, a result of, of putting themselves in situations, uh, where, where it's more likely to happen. But, uh, but yeah, that's, that's something you can't sustain. You, you would drive yourself despondent just by how little it actually works if you are just dedicating your waking hours and all your efforts and, and time, talents, and energies to saving people because you just cannot stand to think of people suffering the damnation of eternal hell fire. That, that will drive you out of your mind.

Dan Beecher B- and it does, and people get really injured by this. I mean, we had, we literally had, uh, one of our patrons, we, on, in our patron o- patrons-only content, available for all patrons now on Patreon.com, but we had somebody literally write into us and just say, "Hey, I us- I, I'm still struggling with some of these ideas, because it was implanted into me from a very young age-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... that if I... Not only do I n- is it my job to go out and convert people, but it, but if I fail at that, then it's my fault that that-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... person's going to hell.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And that's a mind bender. That, that is awful.

Dan McClellan That is straight up abuse, I think to-

Dan Beecher I think so

Dan McClellan ... to, to try to... And, and it's all, it's all in an effort to try to convince people to take it seriously.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan But you, when it's kids, you are, you're building the foundation of their worldview, and doing so in a way that they can never meet. They can never rise to that standard.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And which means they are going to see themselves as, as failures. And, and that's a, a s- I think we talked about this as well in the, uh, in the after party that we always record beforehand now. Um, that, um, you know, when you build up a worldview that has hell right at your door, constantly right there as a perpetual threat, just to try to make people feel like there are real stakes-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... um, that is so phenomenally unhealthy. And then, and that's why you have so many people who are, uh, in such dire straits these days when it comes to, um, you know, their, their status before God, uh, their standing. And particularly when, uh, with all that's going on right now. Like, uh, it, we're, we're not living in a very stable country- ... uh, at the moment, and so this, this kind of increased, um, stress is, is, can definitely not be helpful. So, so it sounds like the, uh, the modern evangelical witnessing-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... evangelism conversion stuff, it, it sounds like we're both pretty dedicated to the conclusion that, uh, that the, the data indicate this is something that is used as an identity marker, as a way to perform your belonging, as a way to perform your conviction, as a way to perform your commitment to the group and, and its standards. But yeah, as, as you said, if you, if it meant so much to you that you were willing to give up all your time and your, your energies, and dedicate so much of your life to it, it doesn't make sense that, uh, you just accept and move on, uh, accept failure and move on so nonchalantly.

Dan Beecher Well, or that you do, that you use tactics that very clearly no one around you is responding well to.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, that just seems, that just seems absurd.

Dan McClellan Yeah. No-

Dan Beecher You did say a, you did say a word that I wanted to touch on, though.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher And that is the word witness.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Because Matthew doesn't say that word, but Acts does.

Dan McClellan Mm.

Dan Beecher And I think that that is an interesting thing, because in, it, uh, Acts, what am I in? I'm in Acts 1. Oh, okay, very first a- uh, chapter of Acts. And it says, "But when you receive the power of the Holy Spirit, come, uh, when, when... But you will receive the power" "Receive power," I can't... I'll learn to read someday. "Uh, when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." And I thought to myself, you know, I hear Evangelicals especially talk about witnessing to people. Mm-hmm. And I don't think that the concept of witnessing or being a witness in, at least as it's spelled out here, it doesn't feel to me like it's evangelizing or it's, uh, you know, the same as the commission. It's just when someone asks. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... a witness is mo- is far more passive than that. A per- when you think about someone who is a witness in a, in a, you know, in a lawsuit or whatever- Yeah ... you, you know, if someone says, "Hey, is Jesus cool?" You say, "Yes."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher That's the job of the witness.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Always be ready to give an answer to those who, who ask. Um- And

Dan Beecher I f- yeah, I feel like that-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Do you know what, do you know what the Greek word for witness is?

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan Martyr.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's interesting.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Martus or martys is, uh... martyros, the, uh, is the, uh, genitive. But, um, yeah, that's, that's where the, the idea of a martyr comes from. This is somebody who is, uh, who has given their witness through the sacrifice of, uh, of their life.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan But, but yeah. But you're exactly right. It's one who testifies- Yeah ... um, in legal matters or just generally, one who attests, testifies, witnesses. Um, so-

Dan Beecher So yeah, I mean, I feel like that, that is a much more doable commission right there.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher To, you know, if called upon, don't deny it. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, there's, there's a, there's a saying, and I don't remember if it... I've, I have heard it attributed to Ben Franklin. I'm, I'm pretty sure that's not accurate, but maybe it was Ben Franklin. I don't know. He said, uh, "A good example is the best sermon." Like, there are a variety of ways- Right ... to witness.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan If giving up your life is, is like the quintessential way to witness, you don't have to open your mouth to do that. You certainly don't have to play a guitar on an airplane.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and so being a good example, why, why can't that just be the way that you- Right ... you witness to people? Live your life in a way that people go, "Wow, they're, they've, they've got something."

Dan Beecher There's something special about that person. Yeah.

Dan McClellan "I wanna know what it is." Yeah. "I wanna know what that something special is." Uh, that, I, I think is more effective than irritating people so that you can show off, so that you can record yourself and put it on social media, or so that you can do it in front of your, your little mission group that you're, uh, that you're traveling with or, or something like that. Yeah. What... We had, um, April Ajoy talking about they used to go to restaurants, and they would try to get the server to pray with them.

Dan Beecher Yeah. To do the-

Dan McClellan And that was how they- ...

Dan Beecher the sinner's prayer or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then once they said that, whether it was sincere or not, uh, that's another soul for Jesus they win.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher The end, or something.

Dan McClellan And that's, that should s- that should be an adequate tip for, for your server.

Dan Beecher Right?

Dan McClellan So Yeah. Ugh. Don't. Don't get me started on that. But, um-

Dan Beecher Don't do that. Yeah, that's true. You were a server for a long time. You-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah. Yeah ...

Dan Beecher you, uh, you know the sting of-

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh ...

Dan Beecher someone stiffing you.

Dan McClellan No, that was the worst. Um, there's, uh... I remember a couple of times we would, uh... They had, like, uh, little missionary tracts.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Like, little, uh, pamphlets, but they were on a single piece of paper, and half of one side looked like a $20 bill.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so you folded it up, and you stuck it, like, under the glass so it looked like there was a $20 bill sticking out from under the glass. And you open it up, the server would grab it, and immediately be like, "Oh, it's one of those."

Dan Beecher It's a-

Dan McClellan And it w- it would be like, "You know what's worth more than $20? Your eternal soul." And, um- Yeah ... you know, and sometimes they would have a-

Dan Beecher By the way, if a- anyone out there who has ever done that, you owe someone something.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You, me... Don't do that anymore. You... Because if there's something that will send you to hell, stiffing a server, and then, uh, by, by lying to them and pretending that there was a $20 bill there- ... that's, that's, that's worthy. That'll get you to hell. Yeah. I, uh, I, I, I think it's interesting that there are, in, i- you know, when I was sort of prepping for this, one of the things that I looked at was a, a series of, uh, scriptures- Mm-hmm ... that basically said, listen, it's not the people... Or at least my interpretation, and I'd like to hear your thing. But it, it feels like it's not the people that are doing the converting. Uh, you know, Paul in, uh, in Corinthians says, "I planted, Apollos watered." I don't know what that is. "But God gave the growth."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Or, uh, or in Acts, uh, "The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said w- by Paul."

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher So, like, it's, it's the Lord that's doing the work.

Dan McClellan Right. Yeah, that-

Dan Beecher And it feels like that's, that takes a lot of the pressure off. Yeah,

Dan McClellan it does take a lot of the pressure off, the idea of being the, the Spirit is what actually convicts. Yeah. The Spirit is what converts. You're just, uh, you know, the, the facilitator. By getting up and playing your guitar in the middle of the flight, uh, you're bringing the Spirit in, and then the people will be convicted. What baffles me, i- like, I've, I've, I've... Increasingly I'm seeing those kinds of videos on social media- It's like, look, the only people who are not supremely irritated by you are the people who are already followers of Jesus.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so who are you performing for? Yeah, who- Nobody's like, "You know what? I've never thought about this, but she's got a point." She- "I'm gonna have to look into this." My

Dan Beecher goodness. You know- Yeah ... I was just, uh, I was sitting next to someone and she started yelling at everybody, and it just- ... really convinced me. They-

Dan McClellan Now I feel bad about watching The Boys on this flight. So I guess I should, I guess I should just go get tickets to see Young Washington.

Dan Beecher Right, yeah.

Dan McClellan Because now, now I'm a, I'm a, yeah, a red-blooded patriot, uh, who, uh, suddenly doesn't know how history works. But that's beside the point. That's- ... the Christian nationalist part, uh, w- which so frequently attends a lot of what's going on here- Mm ... is not, is not central to the, the- Right ... Great Commission, but-

Dan Beecher So I guess, I guess part of the thing for me is i- looking at the world as it is, especially the United States or, you know, predominantly Christian societies- Mm-hmm ... is the Great Commission even relevant to life here, is one of my questions.

Dan McClellan I think that it is, it is relevant because it is an important and essential identity marker.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan It is... I don't think it is particularly... If, if we're just looking at, uh, conversion rates and things like that, I don't think there's, I don't think there's a relationship. There's... I don't think there's a correlation between, uh, that kind of witnessing and, and what's going on, 'cause the, the most effective means of, uh... I mean, talking about the, a, a good example being the best sermon, I mean, the people who are converting lots of people these days are just famous people who- Mm ... begin to endorse Christian ideas. You get Joe Rogan, you get Jordan Peterson, you get some of these people to just be like, "The Christians got a point." Mm-hmm. Um, and you get the... And, and, you know, there's, there's definitely a political element to, uh, to how that's working. Yeah. But, you know, that's doing a lot more to convert, uh, all the cis hetero White men who, who feel like they're not that special anymore, uh, than, than any amount of singing songs on airplanes and, and by baggage carousel number 10 at, uh, the Salt Lake International Airport.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, um, so as a, a tool of boundary maintenance, as a tool of, of, uh, as a credibility enhancing display, I think it's going to continue to be central. I don't think it really plays a role in, in the spread of the gospel, at least as, as, uh, evangelicals understand it. And I don't think it changes an awful lot of hearts so much as it changes commitment to social identities. Um-

Dan Beecher Well, and let's be honest, uh, it gets clicks. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's, uh, like, it's, like, half of it is just, you know, angry, angry people who want you to stop, and other people who are... Y- it gets- ... engagement- Yeah ... in, on, on the internet, and that's sort of... That, that may be the Greater Commission than, uh, Matthew's, is just, you know, get likes and, uh, and comments. I-

Dan McClellan I've- I've been wondering, if, if I were to just entirely abdicate my commitment to scholarly standards and my- ... goals on social media... I have had people many times reach out to me and be like, "You would be such an effective preacher if you just honored God on your channel," and all this. And I've, I've been tickled by the thought of, like, how influential could I be if suddenly I turned into one of these folks who was, who was just out there preaching the word and, and using my, my channel to, to, uh, you know, push Christ on, on everybody. I, I just have to laugh at, uh- ... at the notion. But, um, yeah, if-

Dan Beecher The question is who, between the two of us, who could, who could get their, uh, their o- their online ministry for money, uh- ... better? 'Cause, 'cause the story of a former a- prominent atheist who then turns around and, and shills for Jesus- Yeah ... s- that plays in the pews, I'll tell you right now. Yeah,

Dan McClellan yeah. And, and, but, but also a, a prominent s- uh, skeptic/academic. Yeah. Yeah. I- Yeah ... I imagine there'd be, there'd be l-

Dan Beecher Look for us to start a church sometime soon, y'all. Yeah. W-

Dan McClellan if the inflation gets too bad- ... um, and, uh, you know, be on the lookout 'cause, 'cause we might just have to, uh, turn heel and, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan and go, uh, chase the, the Benjamins.

Dan Beecher Don't tell them about this episode, though. Uh, d- don't, don't s- don't, uh, screw our thing over by- What- ... by letting, letting them know.

Dan McClellan What's funny is every, every time I... There are, like, a handful of content creators wh- that, like, all... Their whole shtick is like, "Did we just prove God?" and, "We proved the Bible," and, and all this kind of stuff. And, uh, and every now and then I'll respond to one of these videos, and there will be a comment here and there from somebody who's like, "You know, I've followed this person for years, and they used to do another kind of content- Mm ... and then at some point they just pivoted."

Dan Beecher Yep.

Dan McClellan And it's like, I know what point it was. It was the point at which the dollar signs started going ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching-

Dan Beecher Yep, yep ...

Dan McClellan um, in their eyeballs. So, um-

Dan Beecher Well, there you go. I... You know, this whole conversation started because I was annoyed by a meme that I saw- ... that was i- you know, the, the o- the coexist thing, where it's, it's-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah ...

Dan Beecher you know, all of the different religious symbols form the word coexist.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher And that was crossed out, and instead the word convert- ... uh, was, was, uh, highlighted.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And I just thought, "No, that's not the thing."

Dan McClellan That, yeah. It's... That's so... Ah. Yeah, I'm, I'm really annoyed by that. But, you know, this is going back to a kind of a Crusade-style Christianity where, "Oh, it looks like the, the Turks have the Holy Land. It's time to go, uh, time to go Crusading again."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, like, it's a position... There's, there's been a lot of criticism of monotheism and monotheistic faiths on the ground that they don't allow for pluriformity. Like, if you truly are committed to a monotheistic faith, then everybody has to, to get on your side, uh, and you can't allow people to not be on your side. That's been a criticism that has been leveled by some folks.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan I don't think it's, it's, um, that accurate, but, uh, you know, there is a logic to it, and when Christians do that kind of stuff, ugh, it kind of makes me sympathize with the people- ... who get the ick from, from, uh, the idea of monotheism, so.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But,

Dan Beecher yeah. All right. Well, uh, coexist, don't convert. Uh, or if you need to convert, at very least, don't yell at anybody on an airplane. That is the official stance of the show.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, and we stand by it. Or by

Dan McClellan the baggage carousel.

Dan Beecher Or by anywhere.

Dan McClellan Convert through

Dan Beecher a good example. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, j- yeah, just be a good

Dan McClellan example. I mean, hey, you know what? If you wanna compare numbers, I think I got a fairly respectable resume when it comes to- I get messages frequently from people who are like, "You make me wanna take a, a, a, a harder look at this tradition," or, or the one I was raised in, or the one that my, uh, my wife has, or something like that. So.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, I'm doing good things for even for the- ... the believing folks out there, as much as a lot of people don't wanna believe that. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... as... I get as many of those kinds of comments as I do the comments from folks who are like, or like, "You make me so glad I'm, I'm an atheist," or, or- ... "I left that, that stupid religion," and...

Dan Beecher All right. Well, that's it for today. Thanks so much for joining us. If you would like to become a part of helping this show happen, and as also in the process, get early and ad-free access to every episode, and potentially, if you're at the right level, access to that after/before party, whatever it is that we do every week that's bonus content just for our patrons over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma, we really appreciate you. Uh, thanks so much to Roger Goudy for editing the show. Thanks to Sam for being our right-hand man, and we will talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.