Bring Me the Head of John the Baptist!

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher. And this

Dan McClellan is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How go the things, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things go great. We're having a lot of fun. Uh, we are going to dive deep into the baptismal waters. Uh, no, we're not. But we are- ... gonna talk about John the Baptist, the, the moistest guy in all of Galilee- ... um, who, uh, who apparently died in the, in the story. Yes. And we are going to, uh, get into his death and, uh, and, and what it means. It's a really fascinating thing. Yeah. So let's dive into our chapter and verse. Okay, and so for our chapter and verse- Mm-hmm ... uh, it's chapters and verses. Uh, and we've got, uh, we got both... It's the Synoptic Gospels, really.

Dan McClellan Really, yeah. We, we actually... The Gospel of John just, uh, doesn't wanna talk about John the Baptist's death at all. Uh, but it is the Synoptics. It's Matthew, Mark, and Luke. However, Luke also is pretty, uh, pretty reticent about this. Luke is just- Luke is

Dan Beecher sparse.

Dan McClellan Yes, just mentions it in passing. So it's really just Matthew and Mark- Yeah ... that go into any detail about this. And then there's Josephus.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So we also have a separate account of John the Baptist being put to death. So, uh-

Dan Beecher And that's a fascinating... I, I'm, I look forward to getting to the Josephus part of this conversation because, uh, it attests very strongly to this being an actual event that occurred-

Dan McClellan Yes, the- ...

Dan Beecher as opposed, uh, like, like, uh, so much of what we read isn't attested in extra-biblical, uh, manuscripts or whatever.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And this one is very s- very much so, very much, uh- Yeah ... attested.

Dan McClellan Now, the, the motivations for it disagree, and scholars- Yes ... are pretty sure they know which one is more likely to be accurate.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And we'll talk about that. But, uh- Yeah ... but yeah, the fact that there was a John the Baptist and he was put to death by a Herod, uh, is, um, multiply attested and is widely accepted by scholars. So an interesting passage.

Dan Beecher Yeah, so that's pretty cool. Uh- And- ... so let's, let's get into the story- Yeah ... uh, uh, as it appears in Mark and Matthew, mainly.

Dan McClellan And I think an interesting w- place to start on this is the fact that unlike most of the stories that we find across the Gospels, this is the only one where it literally goes longest to shortest.

Dan Beecher Yeah, I did catch that.

Dan McClellan Mark, Mark's description is the longest. Matthew's is next. Luke is just like, "Meh." And then- ... John the Baptist doesn't even mention his death at all. So that's the opposite of what normally happens, where we generally have people building on the stories. So it seems like the role of John the Baptist becomes less and less significant, or at least the death of John the Baptist becomes a less and less significant part of the communicating of the Gospel of Jesus. Uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, and, and to me, there's a, there's a... I, like, I have a bit of a theory about why that might be.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher I'm curious to hear what sort of the scholarship says.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher But when we talked to... Who did we talk to about John the Baptist?

Dan McClellan James McGrath.

Dan Beecher That's right. When we talked to James, uh, it was, it, it became... Like, one of the things that he sort of went into in depth about was that John was probably, John the Baptist was the bigger deal in the timeframe, in the time period. Mm-hmm. He was a huge deal prophet of that era.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And so somehow, these books need to find a way to supplant his fame and his importance with Jesus's fame and Jesus's importance, and I think that, I think that maybe that might account for the shortening of, and diminishing of the role of John the Baptist in the, in the later book, uh, Gospels. What do you think?

Dan McClellan The, that, the idea is that it, it, uh, they less and less want to give John a bunch of credit, and they're- Right ... they're, they're moving further. And that's a, that's interesting because when we do look at John, John does kind of make the biggest deal out of John the Baptist being subordinated to Jesus, and, 'cause, like, the, the account of John, uh, he was baptizing. Uh, and then John 3:24, "John, of course, had not yet been thrown into prison." And then down in verse 30, you have John the Baptist explicitly saying, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan And that's kind of, that, that kind of portends, uh, his, uh, marginalization in this story. And, and yeah, that, uh, it seems to me like that could account for why, as time goes on, the Gospel authors are less and less concerned with the role of John the Baptist, uh, because he was competition initially- Yeah ... uh, to some degree. So-

Dan Beecher Yeah, I think that's a- ...

Dan McClellan interesting theory. I'm, I'm sure people have talked about that, but, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah ... I, I, I

Dan McClellan maybe I'll have to reach back out to James and be like, "What do you think?" 'Cause he'll know- ... better than me. Um, but why don't we start in Mark, which was the earliest one written?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, and we got a whole, what, we got 16 verses here, um, on the death-

Dan Beecher Yeah, it's a, it- ...

Dan McClellan of John the Baptist.

Dan Beecher It's a big, long thing. It starts in John, or Mark 6, and, uh, starts with, uh, in, what, verse 14? Is that where we're starting? Verse 14,

Dan McClellan yeah.

Dan Beecher Um, and we, we don't have to re- read the whole thing, but, uh, the broad strokes are that Herod- Uh, basically-

Dan McClellan Now, this is Herod Antipas.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, yeah, I think we need to, we need to clarify. It's easy to get the Herods confused 'cause there are multiple of them. So-

Dan Beecher Yeah, wait till we get to his wife.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's confusing, too.

Dan McClellan Who was married to multiple of them-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... at least according to the gospel.

Dan Beecher Yeah. This is, like... A- and then, and then the daughter who is named in Mark, uh, which is probably incorrectly named, if I'm not mistaken, but the d- anyway.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um, so we have Herod the Great who dies in 4 BCE, and then he's got a bunch of Herods as children who-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... take over his kingdom. And Herod Antipas-

Dan Beecher Wait, he's got a bunch of Herod? Like, he, he did the, the George Foreman thing and- ... named multiple kids Herod?

Dan McClellan It, that seems to be the case- ... 'cause if his, he's got, um... He had five different wives, and he had Herod Philip I, Herod Archelaus, Herod Antipas, and another Philip II.

Dan Beecher Oh my God.

Dan McClellan And then, um, and then he had a great- he had two grand- two grandsons and a great-grandson, Herod of Chalkis, uh, or Chalcis, and Herod Agrippa I, and then Herod Agrippa II. So yeah, it's, it's a, i- it's a panoply of, uh, of Herodian, um, hubris. But-

Dan Beecher And if, dear viewer/listener, you have had trouble keeping track of all of this, I think that that is forgivable.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I'm just gonna say it.

Dan McClellan So Herod Antipas is, uh, rules from 4 BCE when his father dies to 39 CE.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow, okay.

Dan McClellan But he rules a tetrarchy. So, um, Herod Archelaus took over Judea, and the rest of the kingdom was, was split up. And Herod Antipas got a tetrarchy, so he was in charge of Galilee and Peraea and somewhere else. And then one of his, uh, his brother, Philip II, was in ch- He was known as Philip the Tetrarch. He ruled in, like, the, uh, the eastern, just east of the Galilee. Like, the east, northeastern shore of the Sea of Galilee and east and north. Like, that was, uh, Philip II or Philip the Tetrarch's, uh, area. And then there was a Herod Philip I who was different altogether.

Dan Beecher Ugh.

Dan McClellan We're just gonna ignore him. But, uh, so yeah, it's Herod Antipas who's the one who's, um, who's causing issues here.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, uh, yeah. There, there's a, "Who's this John the Baptist? Oh, he's, is it Elijah?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Is it a prophet, like one of the prophets of old?" Uh, and then in Mark 6:16 he says, "But when Herod heard of it, he said, 'John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.'" So Jesus is the, is the, uh, resurrected H- uh, John the Baptist. And then the rest of the story explains what happened with the beheading-

Dan Beecher What happened when he-

Dan McClellan ... of John

Dan Beecher ... yeah, when he betr-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... when, when he beheaded John. Uh-

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher ... so the story is that Herod arrested John-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... and put him in prison, uh, because John had, uh, had basically, at very least, uh, he had, he had complained about Herod's marriage to his brother's wife.

Dan McClellan Yes. So this is, and, and this is Herod Philip I evidently married Herodias, um, who would later marry Herod Antipas.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But right now is married to Herod Philip, uh, I, and John says that's a no-no. And Herod Antipas gets mad and throws him in prison.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Oof.

Dan Beecher So, so yeah. He... Wait, had Philip not died? Did Herod just yoink her? Like, it, it seems, I, I had assumed that Philip, Herod's brother, had died, and, a- and Herodias was just sort of chilling, and then Herod just snapped her up.

Dan McClellan Um, it, he may have. Well, and, and here's where I get annoyed. Um- Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II frequently- They're, they're very easy to, uh, to confuse.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, I-

Dan Beecher Yeah, they would be, wouldn't they?

Dan McClellan I think he, I think he continued living on, but- ... yeah, he may have just yoinked her. I w- I would have to look into that-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... uh, to, because I, I frankly, I get sick of the, um, uh, the Herodian dynasty's, uh, incest. So, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Okay. So anyway, for the purposes of this, Herod married Herodias. John said, "That is bad."

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher "You're bad for doing that."

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher And so he had him arrested, and it turns out that Herodias, the wife, really held a grudge against-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... this guy.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Now, uh, Herod, in, in Mark it says in verse 20, "For Herod feared John, knowing h- that he was a righteous and holy man, and he protected him." So in this one, Herod is protecting John.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher He's just got him locked up.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, and then there's a whole thing where ... So Herod and Her- And let me tell you something, it took me a minute to parse out what the hell was happening. Because in verse 22, at very least in the NRSV, it says, "When his daughter Herodias came in and danced." And I was like, "His daughter Herodias? What the heck?" Herodias is his wife, who is his brother's wife, but now it's his wife. And who is Herodias? Who's... So I, then I thought, because I also know this story from other parts of, like, culture-

Dan McClellan Uh-huh

Dan Beecher ... the, the name of the daughter in, like- ... opera is Salome.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher So who the heck is daughter Herodias?

Dan McClellan Well, and we do have some, uh, there are some manuscript, uh, variants where it does not say Herodias, uh, came in and danced. It says the daughter of Herodias, which would be Salome, which would be w- w- how the story comes down to, to a lot of folks today, so.

Dan Beecher Which I am, I'm utterly mystified why- ... NRSVue didn't choose to put daughter of Herodias, but-

Dan McClellan I, uh, I, I think there's probably a, a stronger text critical case for Herodias.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, even, even if, yeah, that, that, um, kind of messes up the-

Dan Beecher Yeah. All right

Dan McClellan ... the, uh, the timeline.

Dan Beecher All right. So anyway, whoever she is, this daughter-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... whatever her name happens to be, came in and danced, and she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl... And by the way, this is a bad thing to say. It doesn't ma- Like, it feels like you're gonna be cool when you say-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... something like this to someone who pleases you. Never say this. Uh, he says to her, "Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it." And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give you even half of my kingdom."

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And she ran to her mom. They had a quick confab. They were like, "What should we do? What should we do? What should we do?" And Mom's like, "Oh, I know what I want. I want you to ask for the head of John the Baptist, literally on a platter."

Dan McClellan Yes. And, and there's another person who, who says, "Ask me whatever you want, and I'll give it to you up to and including half of my kingdom."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan That is Esther. And King Ahasuerus, uh, tells her that after she pleases him.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So we've got a lot of kind of stock literary motifs going on.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan In fact, in fact-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... um, the, the idea that John the Baptist would condemn the king, and then the king's wife would come after John the Baptist, that's also reflected in the Hebrew Bible.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan This is... Yes. This is just like the story that we see, uh, in the Hebrew Bible of Elijah condemning Ahab for taking over Naboth's vineyard, and then who comes after Elijah but Jezebel, Ahab's wife.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so the-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... the, the old, uh, you know-

Dan Beecher I do remember that. Yeah

Dan McClellan ... the wife of the king is, is, uh, coming after the people who are criticizing the king. Uh, that old canard is-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, is bubbling to the surface in, in this story, as well as, uh, the Esther, you know, I'll give you up to half my kingdom, which, which really, like the intertextuality here makes it clear this is more of a literary creation than it is a reflection of strict history. The, the author is, is very clearly taking liberties. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... so. But, uh, but yeah, we have, uh, so this would be Salome. She goes to her mom, "What should I ask for?" And, uh, John the Baptist's, uh, noggin. And the king, who has to do it 'cause he told her-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... anything you want

Dan Beecher And he swore anything-

Dan McClellan Yep

Dan Beecher ... yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, gives her, uh, the head of John the Baptist.

Dan Beecher Yeah. He sends for a soldier. The soldier, uh, they, they come in with, uh, with a head.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan Pretty gruesome. But... And another interesting thing, uh, when we look throughout the Bible, there are only a few times when birthdays are celebrated.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And it's always by the villain.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan You never have, you never have a hero, a protagonist celebrating a birthday in the Bible, which is one of the reasons, the reason really, that, for instance, Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays because-

Dan Beecher I was gonna say-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... point Jehovah's Witnesses. All right. I di-

Dan McClellan Well-

Dan Beecher I didn't realize that that was the reasoning

Dan McClellan ... if you interpret the fact that the Bible only presents villains as celebrating their birthday as an indication that you shouldn't be celebrating birthdays, then, then yeah, point Jehovah's Witnesses. But, uh- But, uh, another interesting point. Um, so yeah, head on a platter, gave it to the girl. Who knows what she did with it. Uh, dear diary, um, maybe-

Dan Beecher Well, it says the girl gave it to her mom

Dan McClellan ... or g- gave it to her mom, yeah. But, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and then the mom, who knows, smacked it around a little bit. I don't know. Um-

Dan Beecher Played soccer. I don't... Yeah.

Dan McClellan Had it flattened, put it in, in the pages of something with some old dried leaves. I don't... Maybe- Hung it upside down to dry it out like you do with the flowers that you get. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... but yeah, that is Mark's account, which is the lengthiest account of the death of John the Baptist. But I think it, it's interesting to note that Herod thinks that Jesus might be John the Baptist come back-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... to, uh, to, you know, get him in a, in a-

Dan Beecher Yet, yet another way in which-

Dan McClellan ... Jason and Freddy kind of sense

Dan Beecher ... yet another way in which they're, like, trying to supplant John the Baptist with Jesus. They're just like-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, yeah. It, it, it's a, it's a very interesting sort of move that they're pulling there.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Um, let's get ourselves to Matthew 14.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Matthew 14, we got verses 1 through 12, so slightly shorter. Um, and it, it is a little more succinct. "At that time, Herod the ruler heard reports about Jesus and he said to his servants, 'This is John the Baptist. He's been raised from the dead, and for this reason, these powers are at work in him.' For Herod had arrested John, bound him, and put him in prison on account of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because John had been telling him, 'It is not lawful for you to have her.'" And then, "Herod wanted to put him to death, but he feared the crowd because they-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... regarded him as a prophet." So it's not, "This guy's a nuisance, but it's so much fun the way he does the little magic tricks and I, and, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... you know, I love to, to watch him dance," kind of thing. It's now- He wanted to kill him, but he feared the, the, uh, implications of that.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan He feared what the crowd would do if he killed-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, John the Baptist.

Dan Beecher Put a pin in that for Josephus.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Put a pin in that indeed. And then we have the same thing, the dau- a- and here it says, "When Herod's birthday came, the daughter of Herodias-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... danced before the company, and she pleased Herod." Um, doo, doo, doo, doo. Uh, "Prompted by her mother, i- and he promised an oath to grant her whatever she might ask." He's not gonna be as explicit about it as-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, the author of the Gospel of Mark was. "Give me the head of John the Baptist here on a platter. He was grieved. I..." Not because he was sad to kill John, but because, "Oh, no, this might make the crowds angry, eee." "Yet out of regard for his oaths and for the guests, he commanded it to be given. He was beheaded. Head was brought on a platter, gave it to the girl, who brought it to her mother." And here we have the added detail. I'm pretty sure this is an added detail. No, it's not an added detail. No, it's not. It's in Mark.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan Uh, "His disciples came and took the body and buried him, and they went and told Jesus." Now, you'll recall the very next verse is the feeding of the 5,000 story.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Where they, they tell, in, in Mark, they don't go and tell Jesus. They actually come back from their mission and talk about all the cool things that they were able to do.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So we, there's a little bit of narrative-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... of incongruity there. We got some plot holes in Mark. Matthew fixes it up a little bit, because they go and tell Jesus, and Jesus is like, "Leave me be."

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan "I have, I have to be alone." Um, "Let me grieve." Um-

Dan Beecher So, yeah

Dan McClellan ... "My boy. Look what they did to my boy."

Dan Beecher My boy.

Dan McClellan And then in, in Luke, it's, it's just in passing.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Herod hears about everything that's going on, and he was, uh, this is Luke 9:7, 8, and 9. "He was perplexed because it was said by some that John had been raised from the dead." So now it's not even Herod doing it. It's others saying, "Oh, this is John the Baptist come back to life." "By some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the ancient prophets had arisen." So we're still based on, on the previous Gospels that are saying Herod came up with these three options. Now it's others who are saying it. And, uh, in verse nine, "Herod said, 'John I beheaded. But who is this about whom I hear such things?' And he tried to see him." So in Luke, Herod is not, um, su- superstitious about this.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Luke has Herod just being like, "Well, can't be that dude-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... 'cause he's a little too tall for that dude." I, uh, I shortened him by, by, uh, several inches.

Dan Beecher He's one, one too many heads-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... to be John.

Dan McClellan So, so who is this guy? So a- and that's it.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan That is, uh, we, Luke d- does not feel it is necessary to narrate the reasons for John's, uh, beheading, or excuse me, Herod's beheading of John, and just moves on. So yeah, we, it does seem like they're like, "We don't wanna belabor this guy. We don't wanna give him too much attention. We're just gonna, um, kind of, eh, eh, eh, squeak him out of the, out of the narrative there." And then, yeah, when, when you get to John, it just says, "John, of course, had not yet been thrown into prison," a little parenthetical remark at John 3:24. And then, um, John says, "I'm not the Messiah. I've been sent ahead of him. He who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom who stands and hears him rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. For this reason, my joy has been fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease." Exit, stage left.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and that's it. And so we're not focusing on, on that st- uh, tragic story of John the Baptist in the Gospel of John.

Dan Beecher Yeah, it's such an inter- I- it's funny because, uh, the two Gospels that do decide to tell this grand story, and it is one of the better stories in the New Testament. It's, it's, it, you know, it's got intrigue.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's got-

Dan McClellan The details are, are richer in this story than, than what we mostly find.

Dan Beecher Yeah. And yeah, you get to think about dancing. You, there's a lot to picture there.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And then there's this head that shows up on a plate. So I, it feels, uh, it, it feels rich. And no wonder, you know, pop, or, pop culture, just culture in general, has glommed onto this for centuries. And you know, you go to the Louvre, or you go to any art museum, and you're going to see a representation of John the Baptist's head on a platter.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And you're gonna, you know, and the, there are whole things about Salome. Now, we should qui- quickly just get to why we call her Salome now, which is the, whi- which is, uh, Josephus, right? Like, isn't, is he the, the only place that we ha- we get that name?

Dan McClellan Um, well, we have, she's, I think she's Salome III. Uh, because there are, uh, there are earlier Salomes. But I, I think it, and it comes from, um, uh, Shlomit is the Hebrew.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Which, which is a feminine ver- Shlomo would be Solomon. Shlomit would be a feminine version, uh, er, based on probably, uh, the word for peace. Uh, but yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the daughter of Herod II, Prince- uh, Princess Herodias, however you wanna refer to her, I think she was not the, the first Salome ever.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But she's, she's within the, um, the Herodian line, so she's royalty.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Um, in fact, I should probably some... Yeah, I should probably look into that a little more and see, uh, if there are earlier Salomes. But, um, d- there were three, in the Herodian dynasty, there were three women named Salome. Salome I was Herod the Great's sister and the mother of Berenice. So governor, uh, by her husband, Costobaris, governor of Idumea. We've heard of Costobaris before. We've heard of, we've talked about it on the show.

Dan Beecher Have we?

Dan McClellan I remember now.

Dan Beecher I don't know who that is.

Dan McClellan Yes. Oh, gosh. It was in- It was in the Mary movie that we watched.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan For, for God Awful Movies, Costabarus was one of the people that, uh- Right ... that Herod was manipulating, remember?

Dan Beecher Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan And I think Salome was his wife.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan No, Bernice, Bernice was her w- was his wife. Okay. Okay. Good. Salome was his sister. We are well off track. Yeah, we have- Yeah ... derailed. Um-

Dan Beecher We are deep in the weeds here.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Let's, let's just get to Josephus real quick.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan Josephus, uh, mentions John the Baptist once, and this is in The Antiquities of the Jews. And if you, if you don't know much about Josephus, Josephus actually fought in the Jewish War, uh, against Rome, uh, was a, a general, uh, up in the Galilee, was captured, and then basically became kind of court historian for a couple of, uh, Roman emperors writing in the 90s CE. And Antiquities of the Jews is basically him saying, "Here's what happened to us." He's basically just doing a history of the Jewish people, retelling a lot of stories starting from the Hebrew Bible, going through Greco-Roman period Judaism, and then getting to now. Okay. Now, we get to, uh, how Herod is defeated in a battle. And, uh, this is chapter... No, it's Book 18, Chapter 5- Yeah ... Section 2- Yes ... of, uh, Josephus's Antiquities. And this is an old translation. I, I tried to see if I could... Schwartz just published a translation, a new updated translation and commentary on this part of Antiquities. I've ordered the hard copy. I, I couldn't get it in time for this, but, uh, here's what we have from an older translation. "Now, some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist. For Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism, for that the washing with water would be acceptable to him if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away or the remission of some sins only, but for the purification of the body." So, so that kind of, uh, addresses the overlap of the earlier notion of the mikvah as, as purifying the body, and then the newer notion of baptism as forgiveness of sins, which we talked about with James. Um, "Supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now, when many others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved or pleased by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise, thought it best by putting him to death to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly, he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Machaerus, the castle I before mentioned, and there, and was there put to death. Now, the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod and a mark of God's displeasure to him." Okay. Machaerus, Machaerus is this hilltop fortress that is, uh, on the east side of the, uh, Dead Sea, uh, right about the middle of, uh, of the Dead Sea, um, north and south. So- So- ... so yeah, there it's just- No,

Dan Beecher no banquet. No banquet. No Herodias. No Herodias. No Salome, none of that. And, and also, like, Herod is not reluctant. Herod is not worried. Herod ... Or w- rather, what he's worried about, and now he's... You know, back in, uh, Matthew, he was worried about the crowd, but he was worried a- about the crowd being mad if he killed him. Yeah. Now he's worried about John's... So, so Josephus says he was worried about John's influence over the crowd, and worried that he could inspire the crowd to come and rebel against him. So he just thinks it's just, it's handy and useful- Yeah ... uh, to just have him killed and just end that- Yeah ... little bit of nuisance.

Dan McClellan And, and it is interesting that the, the observation is identical. "Oh, these people really love this guy."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan The conclusion is- Right ... entirely different.

Dan Beecher Opposite.

Dan McClellan Luke wants you to think that he was like, "Well, I can't kill him." And then Josephus is like, "Well, I better kill him." So, um, we have very different motivations going on here, but, but L- uh, Matthew, not Luke, Matthew is, is- Yeah ... the one who says, uh, he feared the crowd and what they might do. And that's, and that's something that in... And, uh, Pilate is the same. Pontius Pilate is, is the same. They have, "Oh, uh, uh," he fears the crowd, um, which is why he, he ends up, uh, acquiescing to crucify the guy in whom he found no guilt, even though what we know from Josephus is that Pilate would've relished the opportunity to, to piss off the crowd, so. Um, yeah. The, the gospel authors, the, the, uh, the personalities, the, the ideas that they're putting into the heads of the characters, the villains, don't really fit with what we know historically about these very real historical figures, so.

Dan Beecher Well, there you have it. There you

Dan McClellan go. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, tha- that's, uh, the, the death of John the Baptist, or the, or the several deaths of John the Baptist. And you get to decide which one you like the best.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm. Let's move on. And the, the, the many different, uh, weirdos of the Herodian dynasty- Yeah ... who, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. Good luck keeping that all straight. Uh, yeah. Don't name your kids the same things.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Well, if you would like to become a part of how this all gets going, uh, you can become one of our patrons over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma. We always deeply appreciate all of our patrons, and you'll get bonus content every week. Uh, thanks so much for tuning in. Like, subscribe, do all of the things, and we'll talk to you again next week. Bye, everybody.