The Fabric Conspiracies

Dan McClellan Now get this, the energy of these two fabrics put together, wool sweater on top of a linen outfit, collapsed the electrical field as well as wearing of black colored fabric.

Dan Beecher Wow. Now what I'm picturing is you put the wool sweater over your linen dress or whatever, and then they both just disappear.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And they're gone.

Dan McClellan Because the light suddenly is canceled out.

Dan Beecher They've canceled each other out.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Now you're naked.

Dan McClellan Congratulations.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher And I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And you happen to be listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things, Dan?

Dan Beecher Glorious, man. It's a great day for a little bit of Bible talk.

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher We might do some debunking of some- All right ... some lunatic stuff. It's a good day for it.

Dan McClellan Yeah, get those bunks out of here.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Bunks are the worst.

Dan McClellan We don't need no stinking bunks.

Dan Beecher That's right. So the thing, we are going to be debunking. We're going to do a conspiracy watch thing- Yeah ... because we've got someone who's coming in hot with some good science.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Or so she says.

Dan McClellan That's going to be fun.

Dan Beecher And then we're going to do a contradiction.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Bible versus Bible, where the Bible seems to say a couple of different things.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher So, that'll be a lot of fun. So let's dive in with Conspiracy Watch.

Dan McClellan Dun, dun, dun.

Dan Beecher All right, Dan. Poor you. You get to deal with all of the nut balls out there- Yep.

Dan McClellan ...

Dan Beecher just spewing stuff about the Bible. This one's interesting, though. This one isn't, at least it's not like the coming apocalypse or whatever. This one seems to be far more docile.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's not quite as harmful, but it's something that I've seen pop up quite a bit recently on social media, and it just baffles me. I'm like, "Where do they find these people, and why are other people out there like, 'I like what this person is saying?'" So, what we're going to start with, though, before we get to the actual conspiracy itself, is a prohibition that we find in the books of Leviticus as well as in Deuteronomy.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And this prohibition is on wearing linen mixed with wool. And so what this is, is fabrics made out of the weaving together of linen and wool fibers.

Dan Beecher And- Now, I'm going to stop you right there because- Okay ... I've heard it many times as, and I'm looking at the Leviticus right now, and it says, "A garment made of two different materials." So- Or two different fibers, depending on what you're going with. Now, why are we nailing it down to just linen and wool?

Dan McClellan Yeah. So what passage are you looking at?

Dan Beecher Leviticus 19:19?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan So what it says is, "shaatnez" is the word there. That's two different materials.

Dan Beecher That's the NRSVUE.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And shaatnez is the word, but we can find this word, I think, in at least one other place. We find it in Deuteronomy 22:11, where it says, "You shall not put on or dress in shaatnez." And then it says, "wool and linen- Okay ... woven together."

Dan Beecher And so- So shaatnez, it's like a kind of fabric that has- Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's like a category of fabric, but here- Yeah ... the word probably means the forbidden fabric- Okay ... or something like that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And some scholars think this comes from an Egyptian word- Hmm ... which would support the theory that the point here is to avoid a specific type of fabric that other societies wore, and particularly maybe Egyptian societies and particularly Egyptian priests.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So it's kind of like, "Those fools and their rayon that they like to put on. We're only wool over here." So it's a way to distinguish us from them, maybe.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan That might be what's going on here, except there's another passage that kind of complicates that.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Because there are folks who suggest, hey, obviously there's something wrong with wearing linen and wool at the same time. And, what makes this problematic is the fact that Exodus 28:6 is talking about the ephod. This is the uniform that the high priest wears. We talked in a previous episode about the breastplate, where the Urim and Thummim were being tucked away- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher within. Says they shall make- With the Christmas lights all over it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. With the 12 stones. So, which always reminds me of the Bush album, Sixteen Stone, which I don't think there's any connection.

Dan Beecher Anyway- ...

Dan McClellan ephod, Exodus 28:6, "They shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, purple, and crimson yarns, and of fine twisted linen, skillfully worked." So that's the NRSVUE's translation.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Now, the issue here is that the words that are translated purple and crimson yarns in most English translations, one of them is techelet, and the other one is argaman. And this means purple and crimson wool.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan This is yarn made from wool that has been dyed these colors.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so, in other words, the ephod is made from wool mixed with linen.

Dan Beecher Oh. And so we- Leviticus and Exodus are in a fight right now.

Dan McClellan There is a bit of an incongruity here, and even Josephus noticed this incongruity. There's a part in the "Judean Antiquities" where he says that lay Israelites, regular old Israelites, and Judahites and Judeans and Jewish folks were not supposed to wear linen mixed with wool. That's reserved for the priests.

Dan Beecher For the priests, right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. That's what popped into my mind was that like- Yeah ... if it's just for the priestly garb, the ephod, then that's different than- Yeah ... what the person on the street is allowed to wear, I guess.

Dan McClellan Now, this is presupposing univocality, of course, because it could just be that whoever wrote Leviticus just really didn't like mixing wool with linen. Maybe they got spanked when they were a kid, and their parents were wearing wool and linen together, and it just left a bad taste in their mouth mind.

Dan Beecher I don't know. But it- Or just something itches, and they just didn't like it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So we don't know for sure that there was this kind of systematic wool and linen only for priests rule from beginning to end. It could just be somebody was like, "We couldn't care less if you wear wool and linen," and somebody else was like, "Oh, I care." But there is another passage. If we go to Ezekiel 44, they're talking about the gear that the priests wear. "They who shall enter my sanctuary and approach my table to minister to me." And it says, "They shall have linen turbans on their heads and linen undergarments on their loins. They shall not bind themselves with anything that causes sweat."

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan So when you think about linen is a pretty light- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher fabric.

Dan McClellan Wool, pretty heavy fabric. And so- Right ... maybe you don't want to mix linen with wool because you don't want something that's going to make you sweat.

Dan Beecher Because- Or just you don't want to mix your summer clothes with your winter clothes. What are you even doing?

Dan McClellan Yeah, because the last thing you want is to be serving the Lord and you got swampy pits.

Dan Beecher It's so true.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's so true.

Dan McClellan Or your undercarriage is just- ... is in bad shape. You don't want any of that.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan So maybe it has something to do with sweat. The long and the short of it is that we seem to have different perspectives, and nobody is explaining this in a way that is clear.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So who knows? And so that brings up the conspiracy. Well, yeah, because someone knows.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Oh, and before I get to that, though, there are a lot of Jewish folks today who will, when they want to buy clothing, will actually take their stuff to a shatnez expert to have it verified- Oh, wow ... that the clothing does not contain linen and wool together.

Dan Beecher This is the textile version of keeping kosher.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So this is something that is taken very seriously among certain social groups within the Jewish tradition today. And there's even a rule that because it's stitched together, you can wear a linen shirt with a wool jacket over top.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan But you have to be able to take one off without the other, because if they only went on and off at the same time, then they would- Right ... be considered to be together.

Dan Beecher A single garment or something.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And this prohibition extends to curtains and tablecloths and towels and things like that.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So- Okay ...

Dan McClellan there's a whole industry for the observance of the shatnez prohibition. Having said that, that brings us now to the conspiracy theory, because I get tagged in videos quite frequently that will raise the question we have.

Dan Beecher Why?

Dan McClellan There doesn't seem to be any indication. Now, these videos don't ever bring up the stuff about sweat. They don't ever bring up the fact that the priest is required to wear clothing that mixes wool and linen. They always just talk about the fact that wool and linen is prohibited. And what they will do is they will cite a person they call Dr. Heidi Yellen, who since the research that is always cited, they are now Heidi Crawford Yellen. But they cite this person. They always call her Dr.

Dan Beecher Yellen.

Dan McClellan I don't know where she got an actual doctorate, but she's a naturopathic medicine doctor and then has some kind of doctorate from some school that is not accredited. So right off the bat, I'm like, "Hmm, I don't know if this person is going to be- Yeah ... on the up and up with all the scholarship."

Dan Beecher To be clear, and I'm going to get some flak for saying this, naturopathy is not doctrine. It's not science-based. It's not backed up by any real science. It's bunk. Or rather, I'll just say I will choose the data over that particular- ... load of dogma.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Thou sayest it.

Dan Beecher Don't forgo real medicine- Yeah ... to go to a naturopath. And if- Go to a naturopath if you want. They claim to know a lot about nutrition and stuff, and many of them have studied a lot about nutrition, but- But they're not going to cure your cancer. You still have to go to a doctor.

Dan McClellan And look, if you want to do shiatsu, if you want to get some acupressure done, if you want to get some reflexology done, go off.

Dan Beecher But- I don't know, man. You're just spending money on a bunch of stuff that- A lot of people really feel good ... again, there's no data for any of that stuff.

Dan McClellan Yeah. But- But if you want to write in and complain, please address your complaints to Dan.

Dan Beecher That'll get you too. You're Dan also.

Dan McClellan Oh, dang it. Okay, so this is supposed to go back to research that was published in 2003. No one that I know who has access to scholarship, and I've heard from a number of people, physicians, physical scientists- Yes ... experts in physics and other things who have tried to track down this research. It all is supposed to go back to 2003. Nobody can find this research from 2003. However, in 2013, in a journal called Hebrews Today, Dr. Yellin published an article called "Linen: The Preferred Fabric for Clothing of Healing, Healthy Living, and Well-Being." And this is supposed to be summarizing the research that was conducted/published/shouted into the ether in 2003. And it begins by talking about electronic properties.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Yes. And we have a bullet point on the first page of this article that says, "Scientists have discovered that linen fibers reflect light."

Dan Beecher Period.

Dan McClellan You know what?

Dan Beecher You didn't need scientists for that.

Dan McClellan No. You just needed to, "Can I see it?"

Dan Beecher It's reflecting light. I'm literally looking at linen right now.

Dan McClellan It's reflecting light.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Okay. "The light energy aspect of living organisms has been measured by many individuals within the" capital S, "Scientific Community."

Dan Beecher Ugh.

Dan McClellan "Nobel Prize-winning Dr. Otto Warburg," this is a real person, "Identified signature frequency numbers of the average human at 70 to 90." That is not a real thing. So I and other professional scholars who make our livings doing scholarship have never been able to find any such claim by Nobel Prize-winning Dr. Otto Warburg.

Dan Beecher Yeah. But- The second you hear the word frequency- Yeah ... your Spidey sense should be, your hackles should be all the way up.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Because frequency is- The high-frequency Spidey sense is tingling.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan And here's the other thing. 70 to 90 what?

Dan Beecher Right. You and I were talking earlier, and you said frequency units- ... which I think is about right.

Dan McClellan It's- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher 70. Shut up.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's 70 sciences of frequency. Shut up.

Dan McClellan Reminds me of the Brian Regan skit where he wants to get somebody to come pick up the packages, and he has to enter height, length, and girth.

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan And he's like, "Well, the height's this, the length is this, and I don't know what girth means." "What's the size?" "10 girth units."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Okay, so it goes on. "All results with numbers less than 50 were identified as the signature frequency of chronic disease."

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Got you. Any number less than 15 was identified with those having a diagnosed incurable condition, such as cancer.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher Cancer's all about your frequencies, then.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Woof.

Dan McClellan The measurement of linen fabric measures 5,000 signature frequency. I did not misspeak. Now, this was published in 2013. This person has a website where they have an updated version of this paper- Oh ... and they have edited this part- Oh ... so that it says, "The measurement of linen fabric measures 5,000 signature frequencies," which is worse.

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah. That's different.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Not better.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher You haven't improved this.

Dan McClellan Right, because we now have multiple signature frequencies rather than multiple units of- Ah ... whatever frequency you're talking about. "How do other fabrics compare? Plant fibers like cotton and hemp are not a healing fiber when measuring its signature energy output."

Dan Beecher Oh, linen is healing. I didn't catch that we were- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan healing- Yes ...

Dan Beecher using linen.

Dan McClellan Standard bleached and colored cotton measures 40 of energy. Can we just- Once again, I did not misspeak.

Dan Beecher I'm just going to pause and just say, look, frequency can refer to any number of different things. We're just talking about the number of times a thing happens. So in, for instance, sound, sound is measured in cycles per second. That's frequency.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Light is measured in- Wavelength ... frequency is how many times a wavelength will pass by a thing- Yeah ... in a second or whatever. Those are different. But it's all different. 880 cycles per second in sound is concert A, or 440 is concert A.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher In light, that would be meaningless. It doesn't make a sound.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So it's like frequency can refer to any number of things. The tachometer on your, or the- Is it the tach? That measures the number of cycles that your engine does.

Dan McClellan The RPMs.

Dan Beecher The RPMs. That's a frequency measurement.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But you can't just say 20 frequencies.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, I'll pause here to point out that usually when people report this, when people make videos where they share this and they say, "Dr. Heidi Yellen published research in 2003 that found that..." They will just arbitrarily add in megahertz.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan They will say 5,000 megahertz, 100 megahertz.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But that's going to run into a problem here. So, but I want to quiz you.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because there's a revision on this sentence as well.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, I'll read it again from the 2013 paper. "Standard bleached and colored cotton measures 40 of energy." Guess what the revised sentence says.

Dan Beecher I can't fathom. We could be revising to 40,000. We could be revising "of energy" into a unit or something, but I have no idea.

Dan McClellan Ding, ding, ding, ding. "Standard bleached and colored cotton measures 40 units of energy." What are those units? Doesn't matter.

Dan Beecher Just shut your mouth.

Dan McClellan They're there.

Dan Beecher That's what those units are. Energy units.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher EU.

Dan McClellan Now, here's where we get into trouble with the folks who say that this is megahertz. The good news is that organic unbleached cotton measures 100 angstroms, which is a- Angstroms ... normal, but not a healing fiber. So, we have a clue. We actually have a unit of something, but it's not a unit of frequency.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan It's a unit of length.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And particularly, an incredibly small unit of length.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Well, I just looked it up. It's 10 to the minus 10th of a meter.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Like 0.01 nanometers.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, 100 angstroms is one or 10 nanometers. I don't remember exactly which it is.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But if we're talking about light frequencies, and she started off this section by saying scientists have discovered that linen reflects light.

Dan Beecher Yeah, that's right. So, we have to be in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Dan McClellan This is radioactive.

Dan Beecher Oh, fun.

Dan McClellan Yeah. This is X-ray to gamma ray- Okay ... levels of that. So, this would be a wavelength.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which would mean this frequency is off the charts.

Dan Beecher Yeah, and deadly. You don't want to wear something that is emitting gamma rays.

Dan McClellan Now...

Dan Beecher Or X-rays.

Dan McClellan Right. So, the people who say this is megahertz- ... are on the other side of the universe from what's going on here.

Dan Beecher Oh, right.

Dan McClellan Because if this is megahertz, they're talking about wavelengths that are literally a billion times longer.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Like 100 megahertz is a three to four-meter wavelength.

Dan Beecher Yeah. For those of you who are lost in the science of all of this, just know that in the electromagnetic spectrum, visible light is part of that spectrum, and you can calculate the wavelength by the frequency and vice versa.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Those relate to each other, and yes, these people are just randomly choosing whatever. Just units that don't apply to anything because it doesn't work to just say 40 whatever.

Dan McClellan 40 of energy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan 40 of energy. So, the way this is being represented in this paper, in a journal from 2013, makes it very clear that this person does not have the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

Dan Beecher But- Yes ...

Dan McClellan the folks who then pick up this quote, unquote, "research" and then share it online and say, "Oh, they must mean megahertz," are even further off base- Right ... with what they're talking about. She goes on, "The silk fabric measures 10, which would fail to support health in the human body." So, your silk undies are probably making you sterile. Could it be a low number because of its origin? Silk is produced from a, quote, "unclean insect." Could silk be also unclean because the industry is reportedly using spiderwebs to increase the strength of the fabric?

Dan Beecher What?

Dan McClellan Blah, blah, blah.

Dan Beecher Blah, blah, blah.

Dan McClellan Rayon measures at 15 signature frequency, also updated to 15 signature frequencies. Pure wool measures 5,000 angstroms.

Dan Beecher We're back to angstroms again. We're back to angstroms.

Dan McClellan So, for an individual desiring to be well, the best recommendation from the instructions of Torah is to wear linen. Also, Torah gives a warning of wearing wool and linen together, proved in scientific studies to be accurate. The energy of these two fabrics, now get this, the energy of these two fabrics put together, wool sweater on top of a linen outfit, collapsed the electrical field as well as wearing of black colored fabric.

Dan Beecher Wow!

Dan McClellan Where the two textiles measure 5,000 signature frequencies, when put together, these canceled each other out and brought measurable weakness to the human body.

Dan Beecher Wow. Okay, news flash She turned it into a Faraday cage is what she did.

Dan McClellan When you have wool that evidently vibrates light at 5,000 angstroms when it bounces off of your wool, and you have linen that does the same, they do not cancel each other out. That's not how it works.

Dan Beecher Now what I'm picturing is you put the wool sweater over your linen dress or whatever, and then they both just disappear.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And they're gone.

Dan McClellan Because the light suddenly is canceled out.

Dan Beecher They've canceled each other out.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Now you're naked.

Dan McClellan Congratulations.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Flax fabric is an excellent filter protecting against chemical exposure, noise, and dust."

Dan Beecher Chemical exposure. Oh, yeah. I can't imagine a worse fabric to keep you from chemicals than linen.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Linen clothing reduces solar gamma radiation by almost half, thereby protecting humans wearing linen.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan Okay. I'm not going to read any more of that, but- No.

Dan Beecher No ...

Dan McClellan in short, this is pure and utter nonsense.

Dan Beecher Yeah. We haven't cracked the code, I'm afraid.

Dan McClellan Yeah. This person does not understand how frequencies work. And notice that according to the text of the Bible, when you're talking about Torah, it's talking about mixing them together.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And here it says, "Don't put a wool sweater over a linen shirt," which is not in the text, and also is explicitly not what is prohibited according to the Jewish tradition that has developed ever since.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, yeah, highly, highly, highly problematic- So weird ... attempt to try to bring pseudoscience in to try to explain what's going on in this prohibition in Leviticus, and also in Deuteronomy 22.

Dan Beecher I forgive people. Not everybody cares about physics, and that's fine. You don't have to be interested in it the way I am. I enjoy physics. I'm not a physicist. There's plenty I don't understand, but- Yeah ... basic stuff like how waves work and all that sort of thing, I've got some foundation in. But woof. If you don't know anything about physics, that's fine, but don't trust non-physicists about it. All I'm saying is the second someone says, "Oh, energy. Oh, frequency. Oh, blah, blah, blah," maybe turn around and walk away. At least don't take your fashion advice from them based on it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Get up from the table. If you're doing speed dating, just move on to the next person.

Dan Beecher Just ding the bell and- End the date ... go ding the bell yourself and move on to the next person.

Dan McClellan Woof.

Dan Beecher Yeah. That is amazing, though. So- I find that delightful ...

Dan McClellan that's a real prohibition in Leviticus and Deuteronomy- Right ... not explained anywhere, contradicted in other places, if we're assuming that there's actually something wrong or inappropriate about the mixing of those two fabrics. But, yeah, when you have all the data, when you are aware of what's going on in Ezekiel 44, what's going on in Exodus 28, it kind of makes sense that, hey, we got a bunch of traditions here that came together, and they don't all line up. Big deal.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But trying to suggest that there's some kind of magical powers undergirding this- Or science powers or whatever.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Don't worry, you will not get cancer from having the wrong clothes. Unless it's radioactive or putting out X-rays.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher In which case, yeah, do get new clothes in that case.

Dan McClellan All right. Why couldn't Jesse have been like, "Mr. White, look, the frequencies cancel out. We can't be working." I just love the thought of Walter going, "Jesse!"

Dan Beecher That is a "Breaking Bad" reference- "Shut the hell up" ... for those of you.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Indeed.

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher Well, speaking of fabrics and clothes, let's move on to our fun little Bible versus Bible.

Dan McClellan Dun, dun, dun.

Dan Beecher And the reason that we're talking about fabrics and clothing is that we are going to talk about owner of the very famous multicolored dream coat, Joseph.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Joseph and the coat of sleeves. Which is- Coat of sleeves?

Dan Beecher Yes. This is- Please tell me that's the right translation of it, and we've just- Yeah. That's the right translation of it. Well, it uses the plural- How many sleeves did it have? Well, it's using the plural- Did other coats not have sleeves?

Dan McClellan Well, some people think it might've been something with extra long sleeves or something like that, but- Oh ... yeah, that it was multicolored is just an interpretation of what that might mean.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, but I've- Coat of sleeves.

Dan Beecher So someone tell Andrew Lloyd Webber that he has to rewrite his musical, "Joseph and the Amazing Coat of Sleeves."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Okay. Well, that's not what we're talking about, though.

Dan McClellan No, it's not what we're talking about. We're looking at Genesis 37. I just pulled it up in the NRSVUE, and as you're referencing, obviously, Joseph and the amazing technicolor dream coat, the NRSVU has decided to title this section, "Joseph Dreams of Greatness."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So yeah. Of stardom, maybe.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Exactly. But we're talking about Joseph being sold into enslavement or slavery.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Because we've got a problem in the story, and I want to look at a chunk of text, Genesis 37:18-36. And this is the story of Joseph being sold into slavery. But, I want to just highlight a few parts of it that raise questions.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because we seem to have a convoluted narrative here. So, they see the brothers, they see Joseph, and they conspire to kill him. And they said, "Yeah, we're going to kill him. We're going to throw him into a pit, and we'll just tell Dad that some evil beast hath devoured him."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And then Reuben heard it and says he delivered him out of their hands and said, "Let us not kill him." Reuben says, "Let's just throw him in the pit, and we'll leave, and we won't hurt him." And then it says- It's a compromise.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, the plot is to kill him, and then Reuben's like, "Let's not kill him."

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And it came to pass- They're like, "Yes" ... when Joseph- "Just as good."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Just as good. Joseph came to his brethren, and they stripped Joseph of his coat, his long-sleeved coat, and they took him and cast him into a pit. And the pit was empty. There was no water in it, and they sat down to eat bread. And then, they look off in the distance, and they see some Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. And now Judah says to his brethren, "Why don't we not kill him? Let's sell him to those Ishmaelites and let our hand not be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh."

Dan Beecher So already we've got our first ha moment- Yeah ... when they've already decided not to kill him, and then one of them's like, "Wait, let's not kill him."

Dan McClellan Yes, exactly.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, they see Ishmaelites, and they're like, "I got it. We'll sell him to the Ishmaelites."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Then it says, "Then there passed by Midianite merchant men, and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for 20 pieces of silver." So, we've got Ishmaelites, and we've got Midianites. Somebody is drawing Joseph out of the pit and selling him to Ishmaelites. Now I'm going to skip down to the end because Reuben comes back, and Joseph's not in the pit, and he falls to his knees and yells out, "Why, God?" No, he doesn't say that, but he rents his clothes. And then the very last verse of this section, "And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's and captain of the guard."

Dan Beecher Okay. Wait a minute.

Dan McClellan So, yeah. We got Ishmaelites. The brothers are like, "Ah, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites." Somebody draws him out of the pit and sells him to the Ishmaelites. Then the Midianites sell him into Egypt.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So- But we also have the Midianites selling them to the Ishmaelites. So we've got- Right ... Midianites double-dipping here.

Dan McClellan If that's who drew him out of the pit and sold him.

Dan Beecher So- It says it right there.

Dan McClellan Well, it says- ... there passed Midianites by, and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit. But there are folks who will argue the brothers are sitting there saying, "Hey, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites." And then the narrative is just like, "Look, Midianites." And then it says that the brothers then decided, "Okay, the Midianites are gone. Let's take him out of the pit and sell him to the..." So the antecedent of they, the they who drew him out of the pit- Mm ... is, for all intents and purposes, the immediately preceding antecedent would be the Midianites, but it's not impossible that the antecedent is intended to be the brothers.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So it depends on how you interpret it. But we've got a bunch of problems here. So now, there's one thing that some people will do to try to resolve this. They will say that the Midianites were the Ishmaelites. And there is one piece of evidence for this. There's a part in the Book of Judges, in Judges 19 or something like that, where they compare the Midianites to the Ishmaelites.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan They basically say they're the same people. But this is based on a cultural convention having to do with jewelry that a certain group of people wears. And so it doesn't really indicate, "Hey, every time you see a Midianite, that's also an Ishmaelite, and every time you see an Ishmaelite, that's also a Midianite." It's kind of a weird little narrative. "Hey, these guys are like these guys over here." But the bigger problem for this particular narrative is that the text itself explicitly distinguishes them.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It says, "Hey, there are Ishmaelites coming," and then some Midianites walk by, and then there are some Ishmaelites. And if you read Midianites as the antecedent for they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, then the Midianites sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Meaning they are different groups of people.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But a lot of people don't want to accept that.

Dan Beecher But- Well, and also, if you're not saying, if you're saying, and the NRSVUE does make the distinction and says that when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph out of the cistern and sold him- No ... for 20 shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites. But why are we commenting on the Midianites when this one group happened to pass by- Yeah ... then the brother… It makes no sense. We're still in the muck. There's still- Yeah ... muck and mire happening.

Dan McClellan But scholars have noticed this is a problem for a while, and a lot have not been satisfied with just saying, "No, the Ishmaelites are Midianites. Man, don't you get it?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan That doesn't satisfy thoughtful people. But you can actually isolate portions of this story and separate this story out into two freestanding independent narratives with their own beginnings, their own middles, their own ends, and they make perfect sense. I will read them separately, and you can see the two different stories that were woven together to create this third story.

Dan Beecher So to be clear, you are going to read all of the words from this section of what we have in the Bible. But we've taken something that's interwoven, unlaced it- Correct ... so that now it's just some of the verses are in one of these stories, and some of the verses are in the other.

Dan McClellan Correct.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Go. And so I'll read one and then the other. So the first one begins in verse 18. "And when they saw him afar off..."

Dan Beecher You know what?

Dan McClellan I was reading in another translation where I actually highlighted the verses that are different.

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan I'm going to read in the NRSVUE because I'm sick- Okay ... of that other translation. "And they saw him from a distance, and before he came near to them, they conspired to kill him." 21, "But when Reuben heard it, he delivered him out of their hands, saying, 'Let us not take his life.' Reuben said to them, 'Shed no blood. Throw him into this pit here in the wilderness, but lay no hand on him' that he might rescue him out of their hand and restore him to his father. And they took him and threw him into a pit. The pit was empty. There was no water. Then they sat down to eat." Now we're going down to 28. "When some Midianite traders passed by, they drew Joseph up out of the pit. When Reuben returned to the pit and saw that Joseph was not in the pit, he tore his clothes and returned to his brothers and said, 'The boy is gone. And I, where can I turn?' Meanwhile, the Midianites had sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain of the guard." So basically, they throw him in the pit, and then they went, sit down to eat. Some Midianites come by and are like, "Jackpot."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Guy's in the pit."

Dan Beecher Free- The Midianites- ...

Dan McClellan free pit guy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Pick him up, take him off to Egypt to sell him. Reuben comes back and is like, "Crap." "He's not in the pit. What am I going to do now?" Okay, so that's one version of the story where Reuben- Okay ... is the one who seeks to save Joseph, and the Midianites are just happening by, and they're like, "Hey, free pit guy."

Dan Beecher And you're right. All of that made sense. It went in an order that made sense. There was nothing confusing.

Dan McClellan It- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher that went smoothly.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then we have the other story. "And they said to one another, 'Here comes this dreamer. Come now, let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits. Then we shall say that a wild animal has devoured him, and we shall see what will become of his dreams.'" Then we go down to 23. "So when Joseph came to his brothers, they stripped him of his robe, the ornamented robe that he wore." And we're going to skip 24 and the beginning of 25. "And looking up, they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead with their camels carrying gum, balm, and resin on their way to carry it down to Egypt. Then Judah said to his brothers, 'What profit is it if we kill our brother and conceal his blood? Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our own flesh.' And the brothers agreed. Lifting him out of the pit, they sold him to the Ishmaelites for 20 pieces of silver, and they took Joseph to Egypt. Then they took Joseph's robe, slaughtered a goat, and dipped the robe in the blood. They had the ornamented robe taken to their father, and they said, 'This we have found. See now whether it's your son's robe or not.'" And blah, blah, blah, blah.

Dan Beecher Boom.

Dan McClellan So we've got an entirely separate story where they're like, "Hey, let's kill him." And Joseph's like, "Eh, let's not kill him. Let's just throw him in this pit." And then the- For safekeeping.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Just for a while.

Dan McClellan And they were like, "Oh, Ishmaelites, hey, let's..." So, or actually, they don't even, the pit- No ... doesn't even come into play in this, does it?

Dan Beecher Nope. No Ishmaelites at all in that first one.

Dan McClellan Yeah. When Joseph had come under the, they stripped Joseph of his coat, and they lifted up their eyes and looked and saw a company of Ishmaelites. So they're like, "Oh, let's just sell him. Sell him to the Ishmaelites."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites- Finally ... and they brought Joseph to Egypt. So different story, and it's Judah who is the one who says, "What if we didn't kill him?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And then they sell him to Ishmaelites. No Midianites involved, no Reuben involved, no pit involved, and completely different story.

Dan Beecher No, there was still a pit. Wasn't there still a pit?

Dan McClellan I think there's- They said we're going to cast him into a pit. We're going to kill him and cast him into a pit- Yeah ... and say some, an animal got him. But they grabbed him, they took off his coat, and that's when they saw the Ishmaelites, and so they sold him to the Ishmaelites.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So no, the pit is only theoretical.

Dan Beecher Yes. The pit is just one of the possibilities.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So we've got two entirely different stories of how Joseph was conspired against by his brothers and was basically made his way into Egypt.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan In one, Reuben tries to save him. The Midianites intercept him and sell him into Egypt. In the other, Judah's the one who saves him and sells him to Ishmaelites, who take him to Egypt. So somewhere along the way, the editor of this version of Genesis was probably like, "Ah, I really like both of the stories."

Dan Beecher They're both fun.

Dan McClellan "Is there a way we can keep both of them?" And so tried to weave it together to create one single coherent narrative. But it results in these problems with the Midianites being confused with the Ishmaelites, and Reuben and Judah both alternating between saving him from death.

Dan Beecher And who's selling what to whom? Who's selling whom to whom becomes very muddy.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher If you read it together, the way it's presented in my Bible, in the Bible, what you're seeing is, you could be forgiven if you thought that four different exchanges took place.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher The brothers sell him to the Midianites, the Midianites sell him to the Ishmael- Ishmaelites ...

Dan McClellan Ishmaelites.

Dan Beecher Somehow the Midianites get him back. Get him back.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then he's sold to Potiphar. But none of that is clear.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I like the pulling it apart. It definitely makes it more clear.

Dan McClellan We have no manuscripts- Right ... evidence of this.

Dan Beecher It's just a way to make sense of it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's a way to make sense of it, because this stitching together would've happened long before any manuscripts that we have existed.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It just calls to mind the wrangling that happens in any room where there's a whole bunch of people trying to make decisions about a text or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It always ends up being just a nightmare of compromises and stuff, and I can imagine a bunch of rabbis all sitting around going, "Well, I need this part. I like that part." "Whoa, well, I like that part. I want that to stay in." And they're like- Well- ... "Okay, we'll just include it all, I guess."

Dan McClellan That reminds me. I'm going through the copy edits on my new book, and in the introduction to my book, initially I was going over why I use certain language that I use.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And I say, "Normally in my social media stuff, I say Adonai instead of pronouncing the divine name." And I say, "In this book, I'm going to spell it out, just because that will make it be more accessible. It'll be easier. This shouldn't present a problem except for future Dan when he has to record the audiobook- ... and future Dan can suck it." And then I have a little footnote that is like a reference to "Psyche" with Sean and Gus harmonizing, "Suck it." And then later on, I talk about how I am going to use gendered pronouns for God, even though normally in my social media stuff I don't, but here, just because I don't want it to be very confusing, I want it to be more accessible, I say, "And I'm exclusively talking about the God of the Bible, who is gendered male throughout. I am going to use gendered pronouns, and that shouldn't present much of a problem, not even for future Dan." Now, when it went to the editors, they struck the part about "future Dan can suck it," and when it comes time to record the audiobook.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So I'm reading through that today, and I just get to the part at the end of the other discussion where I say, "And this shouldn't be a problem for future Dan." And I'm like, "Okay, I know the history behind this, but somebody- Right ... who doesn't know this, they're like, 'What?'" Future Dan. "Future Dan? What's going on here?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And people are like, "Well, why would somebody leave a contradiction in there?" It's like, hey, multiple professional editors have gone through this, and as a result of their editing, have left this just a conceptual orphan here. What is this doing here? This doesn't make any sense because we've never referred to this before. So it happens.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan This kind of stuff happens when you're editing text, even today, even when multiple professional editors are looking at a text. So yeah. This story is a mess.

Dan Beecher Yeah. And again, one of the themes of our show is embrace the mess.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's so funny when people feel that they have to impose perfection on a 3,000-year-old story or whatever that was probably orally passed down from person to person for a while, and then- Yeah ... different oral traditions were written down, and it's going to be messy.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And that's not a problem. That doesn't mean the Bible's not true or whatever. It just means the Bible's not, you shouldn't be literal- Inerrant ...

Dan McClellan yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And I think it makes it so much more interesting- Yeah ... when you're like, "Oh, there are two different versions of this story." And you can think about, well, why would it have been important for one editor to have Reuben be the one to do it? Why would it have been important for another to have Judah do it?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan I think that makes engaging with the Bible more interesting, more fun. Otherwise all you're doing is just spending all your time trying to save the Bible from itself.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And you just find yourself just defending dogmas, and you never get to appreciate it for what it actually is. You have to just defend believing that it is something it is not.

Dan Beecher Well, I think that is a wonderful place to close out our conversation, so we'll just leave it at that. You don't need to defend the Bible. You can just let it defend itself. It's right there. It's fine.