Are Generational Curses Actually Biblical?

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Oh, man, it's combat time, baby. We, uh, th- although what's interesting is that we're combating misinformation, but the Bible is combating itself.

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh, not again.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan How many times have we talked about this, Bible?

Dan Beecher Dang it, Bible, we've, we've had this conversation. Yeah, it's, uh, Bible versus Bible. We're gonna, we're gonna be talking about the sins of the father. Uh, I think we should just dive right in with Bible versus Bible. Okay, so, uh, we are not going to talk about any of the movies or- ... TV series- Yes ... called The Sins of the Father.

Dan McClellan We actually were like, "Let's look this up." And, um, there were, there were books, there were, there's a video game, there are- Songs.

Dan Beecher There are music- Songs, yes ... there are songs called Sins of the Father. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Let's-

Dan McClellan James Coburn was in one of these-

Dan Beecher Yeah, man ...

Dan McClellan one of these pieces of media, so you know it's good.

Dan Beecher You know it's g- It's, it's been r- ruffling some feathers.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan And we, and, and Dan was like, "Wasn't, wasn't Daniel Day-Lewis in one of these, too?" And then we, we found out that was, uh, that was In the Name of the Father. In

Dan Beecher the Name of the Father, so.

Dan McClellan And that led to an entirely different- ... neurodivergent rabbit hole. So, um, I'm still-

Dan Beecher We're back, though. We're back.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes.

Dan Beecher We're here for you.

Dan McClellan I'm gonna claim that identity even though formally I have been diagnosed, uh, right out of that identity. You're su-

Dan Beecher No, no, no.

Dan McClellan You're pretty sure. You're pretty sure.

Dan Beecher You're still in. We're all- Yeah ... we, we know.

Dan McClellan I'm gonna keep my shirt that says, "Undiagnosed, but something ain't right."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So.

Dan Beecher Exactly. We all know that. Yeah. We c- we can tell. You- Yeah ... you literally know everything there is to know about your special interest. I think we can safely call you neurodivergent. Call

Dan McClellan that a hyper-fixation.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, okay.

Dan Beecher Uh, all right, so here it is. Uh, y- I'm gonna launch us. I'm gonna start us off. All right.

Dan McClellan Launch.

Dan Beecher There's very little that you can say against this. I'm about to present an airtight case.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher We're going to Exodus 20. We're going to the Ten Commandments. It's in the top 10, baby. It's right there. Somehow, strangely, it has not made it onto the wall of any public schools. Uh, because-

Dan McClellan Nor have the references to your enslaved people, but you know.

Dan Beecher Right, yeah, yeah. It is kinda weird that they skipped this part. Mm-hmm. But here's what it says. After it says, "You shall not make for yourself an idol"- Mm-hmm ... uh, in verse five, it says, "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing children of in, uh, s- punishing children for the iniquity of parents to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me." Mm, mm, mm.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher That is, uh, that is solid. That is, uh, it is clearly stated, and it, i- it, it does not equivocate.

Dan McClellan Correct.

Dan Beecher It also sounds kind of awful.

Dan McClellan Uh, yeah. Well, yeah, 100% sounds

Dan Beecher awful. Like, like why are you, what? Why? Why? What did-

Dan McClellan This doesn't, uh- ...

Dan Beecher what did those kids do? I'm like, "My great-grandpa did something bad, and now the whole family's cursed, so I guess, um-"

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. God, God keeps coming around and, uh, you know, moving our stuff when we're not around and...

Dan Beecher I banged my shin the other day. It was really bad. Uh- Oh ... so talk to me about, about this generational curse idea. This like-

Dan McClellan So th- yeah, this is something we see actually, um, in a few different places. Now, we've got the Ten Commandments here, but there are, are two other sets of Ten Commandments in the Bible.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan One of them is very, very close to what we have in Exodus 20. That's where Deuteronomy 5 repeats the Ten Commandments. A little bit of wording changes here and there.

Dan Beecher Yeah, just, just some fun, uh, little updates in the wording, I'm sure.

Dan McClellan Yeah, but we do have the exact same fr- uh, sentence in, uh, Deuteronomy 5:9, and we're gonna come back a little bit to the context of Deuteronomy 5:9 to talk about why the author of Deuteronomy actually seems to be of two minds about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, we also have, and those are, those are legislative, but we also have a couple of other references to this, to this in the other Ten Commandments, which would be the, uh, what's called Ritual Decalogue. We've talked about this before.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Exodus 34.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Which is the set of Ten Commandments that's actually referred to as the 10 words.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, it says, "Keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, yet by no means clearing the guilty but visiting the iniquity of the parents upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." And then-

Dan Beecher Which, when I read that, I was very confused by. 'Cause it's like, steadfast love, thousand generations of love- Yeah ... and, uh, forgiving iniquity, and then not forgiving iniquity.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher And also, the iniquity goes on to the children, too.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And it's, uh, like, that feels like it's contradicting itself within the verse. I'm confused by that. Yeah,

Dan McClellan but, but you have this contrast, and, and we'll look at, uh, in Deuteronomy, we have a similar contrast, uh, in Deuteronomy 5 and Deuteronomy 7, but Numbers 4, 14:18 says the exact same thing. "The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the parents upon the children to the third and the fourth generation." So four times we've got this pretty clear thing where they go, "Hey, buddy, God will punish, uh, children for the iniquity of their parents to the third and even the fourth generation."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Second generation, we're just gonna cruise on by. We're not even gonna mention them. But the third and the fourth generation, where, that's where things land. Um, so, so that seems pretty clear. As you said, not, not really, um, much equivocation going on there.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan There are, there are some who will argue- Based on what we have in Exodus 20 verse 5, "Punishing children for the iniquity of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me." People will say it's only as long as the generation continues to reject God. Which- Okay ... which is kinda like they're, they're trying to weasel out of it-

Dan Beecher Yeah, it, I mean- ...

Dan McClellan by saying they're perpetuating the iniquities. That's why they're being punished for them. And as we're gonna see, mm-mm. Yeah. Mm, that doesn't work. It doesn't work.

Dan Beecher Yeah, I mean, I, you know, one of the main stories that we... Like, if this were just in these sort of legislative moments, these, these, you know, lists of rules or whatever, that's one thing. But, uh, this concept shows up in stories. I-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah ...

Dan Beecher I mean, we've talked about Ham, we've talked about Noah.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Uh, and that was like, "I curse everybody that comes out of you forever- ... or all of the time."

Dan McClellan Well, yeah. And, and that's not even to, um, say anything about the, uh, the destruction of all the firstborn, uh, in Egypt. Mm.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, these were, these were, these were the children of, uh, of Egyptian parents and, you know, this was even the baby in the bassinet- Yeah ... suckling-

Dan Beecher Just a sweet- ...

Dan McClellan at the teat ...

Dan Beecher little kid-

Dan McClellan Yeah ... that

Dan Beecher ain't done nobody to nothing. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Dead. And we're gonna, we're gonna talk about an- uh, I, at least I would like to talk about a number of examples where God very clearly says, "Hey, you did something wrong. You're gonna die. Also, your kids are di- dying, too." So, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan and even, even infants. So yeah, there's no real way around this, but-

Dan Beecher It's tricky ...

Dan McClellan but now we gotta look at the other Bible.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan 'Cause we got Bible versus Bible.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's like Kramer vs. Kramer. We gotta- Yeah ... we gotta look at the other, um, uh, you know, "I can't take it anymore, Jerry." Um, I'm pretty sure that's the Kramer they're talking about, uh, in that show. I never watched the show. But, um, if we go to Ezekiel 18, even Ezekiel thinks that my mind is gone. I, I... Did I put that in a... I think I put that in my book. Yes, I did. That was the, that was the t- that was the, the, the heading for one of the sections in my book. Even Ezekiel thinks that my mind is gone.

Dan Beecher I don't even know what the reference is. Uh-

Dan McClellan That's, that's Weird Al.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan That's Gangsters, uh, uh, or Amish Paradise. Amish Paradise, yeah. Yeah, where, even Ezekiel thinks... I sh- probably shouldn't sing it, huh? Um-

Dan Beecher I don't know.

Dan McClellan But it's, it's based on-

Dan Beecher Weird Al would forgive us. But, but, but his record label might not, so.

Dan McClellan Yeah. No, no, his rebe- they're, they're vicious. Um, so anyway, in Ezekiel 18, we've got this discussion of how if, uh, you know, somebody charges, uh, interest on loans and stuff, they shall die. Uh- Right ... and then we go, "Yet you, uh, yet you s-" And, and then it talks about how the children shouldn't. And then verse 19 says, "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father? When the son has done what is lawful and right and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent or a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child. The righteousness of the righteous shall be their own and the wickedness of the wicked shall be their own.'" So, so this is the other side of this. Also unequivocal.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan Also unequivocal, yeah ...

Dan Beecher also pretty, uh, pretty well-stated and straightforward. Yeah.

Dan McClellan And it, it seems, it certainly seems like it's trying to fill things out a little bit and generalize 'cause it's not just, um, you know, the, the child shall not suffer for the sins of the parents. He's like, "We're... And we're gonna even go back the other direction. A parent shall not suffer for the sin of a child." Yeah. We don't have a whole lot of stories about that. Right. But, um, I, I think you could actually read it into some of the, some of the things we're gonna talk about. But, and then the righteousness of the righteous shall be their own. It, it's kind of filling out, it out. But so this is secondary. This is a later kind of, uh, renegotiation of this, and I want to... And, and Ezekiel is late. Like, Ezekiel is, is exilic, period. Right. Uh, Exodus 20 is probably late pre-exilic, uh, or maybe into the exilic period. But we can see where the pivot happens because there's, uh, in, in the earlier texts, yes, there was corporate responsibility for sin. There was corporate punishment for sin. And then with a certain literary layer in the Pentateuch, they flip a switch. Interesting. And they go, "We're not doing this anymore." And it happens in Deuteronomy. And so it is, it is a Deuteronomistic rhetorical goal, kind of, to overturn this- Mm ... because we, we already looked at... Now, now you're gonna say, the thoughtful listener or viewer- ... is going to say, "Wait a minute, you just read that from Deuteronomy 5:9-" We sure did ... the Ten Commandments. So it's, it, that's in Deuteronomy, yes. But let's, I'm gonna read 5:9 and 10, and then read 7:9 and 10. So 5:9 and 10, "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." So we're, we've got both sides of this. Yeah. If you're, if you're bad, fourth generation. If you're good, thousandth generation. Then we go down to Deuteronomy 7, "Know therefore," this is verse 9, "that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God, who maintains covenant loyalty to those who love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him. He does not delay, but repays in their own person those who reject him." This is not just a different idea. This is clearly pointing to the other one and saying, "Nope."

Dan Beecher Yeah, it does feel- "Not that" ... it does feel like it is a, a- I, that's a weird thing to have two chapters later-

Dan McClellan Yeah, because-

Dan Beecher ... uh, in the same book

Dan McClellan ... 'cause the, the, the Ten Commandments... And, and this is what makes it clear that Deuteronomy's like, "Well, we gotta put the Ten Commandments in there. Ugh, okay. Well, we are going to write this thing a couple chapters later that overturns this," because it says, "Punishing children for the iniquity of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me." And then we've got this, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." The one who rejects him gets punished in their own person, they themselves, and God's not going to delay and wait until we get down the road to, uh, a child or a grandchild or a great-grandchild. Uh, and, and so we've got this interesting pivot here. This seems to be the Deuteronomist is inheriting this view that God will punish children for the sins of the parents, but then is trying to massage it away, is trying to go-

Dan Beecher Trying to-

Dan McClellan ... oh, well.

Dan Beecher Trying to have some influence over, over it going forward. Now, remind me when, uh, the, when Deuteronomy, we think, was written.

Dan McClellan Yes. So Deuteronomy, um, the earliest layers of Deuteronomy are probably right before the exile. This is probably King Josiah. And, and this actually probably doesn't include, um, these two chapters. Uh, th- so this is probably a later layer within Deuteronomy, because scholars usually identify, like, three different main compositional editorial layers of Deuteronomy. It came together in waves. And i- if anybody wants a good book on this, um, uh, Thomas Römer, uh, wrote a book called The So-Called Deuteronomistic History, which is really, really good, and he discusses here are the clues that lead scholars to conclude this. But so the, so the part we're talking about is probably Exilic.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, and while Ezekiel is not a big, a huge fan of the Deuteronomist project, I think Ezekiel picks up this, um, this outcome, this product of the Deuteronomistic, uh, project. And, and there's a story that, um, I think kind of shows the Deuteronomistic authors wrestling with this, uh, and it has to do with a dude named, um, Ahab.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Now, Ahab was the king of Israel.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And there's a story where Ahab, uh, takes Naboth's vineyard. Have you heard those words before in that order?

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher I, I'm trying to remember if we have talked about this on the show, but I can't-

Dan McClellan If we haven't, we need to.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So may-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... maybe we need to, so jot that down.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, so anyway, uh, there's a... So Ahab ends up killing Naboth, taking his vineyard. And then, "The word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite saying, 'Go down to meet King Ahab of Israel who rules in Samaria. He is now in the vineyard of Naboth where he has gone to take possession. You shall say to him, thus says the Lord, have you killed and also taken possession? You shall say to him, thus says the Lord, in the place where dogs licked up the blood of Naboth, dogs will also lick up your blood.'" So, um, yeah, there's some foreboding there.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan You can imagine Elijah going, holding up his staff and going, "Dun, dun, dun." And then, um, sprinting away so the king doesn't have him killed.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, which was a problem for Elijah. Uh- ... he must not have been a very likable person. But- So you, you've got this, this prophecy, this curse, two parts to it. You will die in Naboth's vineyard-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in the very place that you have taken possession of, and it i- you, the dogs will lick up your blood. Now, the problem is we have two different attempts to kind of fulfill this prophecy-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... and none of them actual- neither of them actually get it right.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher It seems like a pretty simple prophecy to get correct.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, y- you shouldn't have, you shouldn't have too much trouble there.

Dan McClellan A simple prophecy, yes. Um, that is from, uh, uh, that is... Shoot. Um, R.E.M. has a song, uh-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... to occupy my time.

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, so that's I Kings 21 where that curse is uttered.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan The very next chapter you have, uh, Ahab gets killed. "The king was propped up in his chariot facing the Arameans until evening. He died." He gets shot with an arrow. "The blood from the wound had flowed into the bottom of the chariot. Then about sunset, a shout went through the army, 'Every man to his city and every man to his country.' So the king died and was brought to Samaria. They buried the king in Samaria. They washed the chariot by the pool of Samaria. The dogs licked up his blood, and the sex workers washed themselves in it." I know, I don't know why we brought them into the story.

Dan Beecher Yeah, it's, honestly, come on, guys.

Dan McClellan "According to the word of the Lord that he had spoken." So the narrator wants you to imagine, oh, this fulfills the prophecy.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Only half of the prophecy, because the location is not in Naboth's vineyard.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan They've taken the, they've taken the chariot out back and they're hosing it down. Uh, that's not Naboth's vineyard. But the prophecy was quite explicit, in the place.

Dan Beecher May- maybe the chariot went through the vineyard on the way there- ... and dripped some blood. Uh, it's-

Dan McClellan Well, I think you've got an irrigation system where the, the- ... blood flowed and ended up pooling in Naboth's vineyard.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then the dogs were like, "What? Jackpot." And, um, but anyway, that, so that's one attempt to fulfill the prophecy. And then we've got another, we, we've got, we gotta go to II Kings 9, and this is the one that makes the Deuteronomist uncomfortable. So here we have Jehu drew his bow with all his strength and shot Joram- Between the shoulders, so that the arrow pierced his heart and he sank in his chariot. Joram, AKA Jehoram-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... is the son of King Ahab.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Jehu said to his aide, "Bidcar, lift him out and throw him on the plot of ground belonging to Naboth the Jezreelite, for remember when you and I rode side by side behind his father, Ahab, how the Lord uttered this oracle against him: 'For the blood of Naboth, and for the blood of his children that I saw yesterday,' says the Lord, 'I swear I will repay you on this very plot of ground.' Now therefore, lift him out and throw him on the plot of ground, in accordance with the word of the Lord."

Dan Beecher Hmm. Okay.

Dan McClellan So now we've got the offspring of Na- uh, Ahab-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... who is dying on the very plot of land. So we're kind of, like, finishing the prophecy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's like, the dogs licked up the blood, great, but we need, we need somebody to die on the spot.

Dan Beecher We, we still need some of blood that can be considered Ahab's-

Dan McClellan Yeah, and so-

Dan Beecher To-

Dan McClellan But this is his son.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan The, and, and the, the narrative explicitly has you say, you s- recalling the prophecy, only this prophecy's different 'cause it doesn't say for the blood of his ch- or, oh, yeah, the blood of Naboth and the blood of his children, not, not Ahab's children. So anyway, the, the idea seems to be that if the kid suffers the fate that was promised the father, that's good enough.

Dan Beecher Counts.

Dan McClellan That still fulfills the prophecy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Which kind of requires the assumption that God is happy to punish children for the sins of the fathers. Now, people are gonna say, "Well, he followed in the sins of his father." Great, still not the prophecy.

Dan Beecher Right, and still, and still a d- it's still a different sin. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Like, like, if I steal a car and then my kid steals a different car- ... that's two different sins.

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher That's not continuing the same sin.

Dan McClellan And Joram didn't kill Naboth. He didn't dig him up and-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... and, uh, have a little mock trial with his corpse- ... and then, and then kill him again. So, um, so yeah, the 2 Kings 9, much to the discomfort likely of the, the Deuteronomistic compiler and editor, seems to treat, uh, this story as a fulfillment on the p- of the prophecy based on the notion that the, uh, the children can take upon them the, uh, the sins of the fathers. And, and, uh, even a prophecy about punishment for sin can be transferred to the son. Yeah, the, gotta read the fine print. Transferable. Fully transferable.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah, exactly.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher This is, this is a fungible token.

Dan McClellan So, um, so that is an example of, uh, one example of something within the Deuteronomistic history that, uh, would seem to not quite work with the Deuteronomist's idea.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But let's talk briefly about several other examples. We've already talked about Egypt, the plagues.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan The, the 10 plagues.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, here's a fun one. We've got Korah. Don't know if anybody remembers, uh, good old Korah from Numbers 16. Did a lot of bad stuff.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Moses got up, went to Dathan and Abiram. The elders of Israel followed him. He spoke to the congregation, saying, "Turn away from the tents of these wicked men and touch nothing of theirs, or you will be swept away for all their sins." So they got away from the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. And Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the entrance of their tents together with their wives, their children, and their little ones. And this is, this is, like, n- you know, children, mm, I have a 17-year-old child-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... who is responsible for themselves, but not really. But, um- ... little ones is explicitly your infants, your toddlers.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And Moses said, "This is how you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, it has not been of my own accord. If these people die a natural death, or if a natural fate comes to them, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates something new and," oh, say, "the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up-

Dan Beecher Oh my gosh

Dan McClellan ... with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol- ... then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord. As soon as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them was split apart. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, along with their households, everyone who belonged to Korah-

Dan Beecher What?

Dan McClellan ... and all their goods."

Dan Beecher What?

Dan McClellan "So they, with all that belonged to them, went down alive into Sheol. The earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly." I don't think a lot of people are aware of this story.

Dan Beecher I'm not aware of this story. How do you spell Korah?

Dan McClellan K-O-R-A-H. Numbers 16 is where this happens. But-

Dan Beecher That's horrifying

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Why haven't we done this story on the show? I- Yeah,

Dan McClellan this is, like, horror movie stuff.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, "Hey, guess what? You're going down to hell-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... alive." And then-

Dan Beecher You're just, and it's just to prove that I'm real.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher This is just, this is just-

Dan McClellan But yeah- ... uh, yeah ... and, and, and they, and the, the narrator took the time to mention their kids and their babies-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... were there as well. So, like, this seals the deal. Their babies didn't do anything wrong.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Their babies, like, were not like, "I'm making the conscious decision to follow in the sins of my father." You know, they weren't... That's a bad baby voice. Um-

Dan Beecher I love your baby voice.

Dan McClellan Um, I, the, the, it was, it was kind of the Gollum kids. Um-

Dan Beecher Yes, exactly.

Dan McClellan "Stupid Korah." So yeah, that, that's a pretty clear example of that. And, and we've got, and then we've got Joshua with Achan, um, in Joshua 7. They, they took Achan, son of Zerah, with the silver, the mantle, and the bar of gold, with his sons and daughters, with his ox and donkeys and sheep and his tent, and all that he had, and they brought them up to the Valley of Achor. And then Joshua says, "Bad move, man. Why'd you do this?" And all d- Israel stoned him to death.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan They burned them with fire, cast stones on them, and raised over him a great heap of stones that remains to this day. So, uh, yeah, his, uh, Achan, his sons and daughters also got the, the raw deal-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... with n- with no reference to them having done anything wrong.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And then we got a, we got a couple of examples where it's explicitly a newborn.

Dan Beecher Oh, my gosh.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So the first one, uh, is a famous one. Uh, what happens to David after he, uh, sends, um, poor, um-

Dan Beecher Oh

Dan McClellan ... the, the... Oh, my gosh. It's, it's Uriah, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, why am I-

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Why... I'm getting a brain fart.

Dan Beecher Bathshe- Bathsheba's husband, right?

Dan McClellan Yes, yes.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan I'm, I don't know why-

Dan Beecher I think it's Uriah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Yes. So anyway, so, so David has this, uh, affair, well, rapes Bathsheba-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, and Bathsheba becomes pregnant and gives birth to a child. And thus says the Lord, "I will raise up trouble against you from within, within your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in broad daylight." Um-

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Which sounds kind of odd. Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can imagine this, uh, this neighbor being, "Dear Penthouse." Um, "For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and in broad daylight." David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." David said to-- Nathan said to David, "Now the Lord has put away your sin. You shall not die. Be- nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child born to you shall die." And then the child dies.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, um, that is a, to the degree you wanna imagine a newborn child is a person in ancient Israel, which is somewhat debatable.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Um, that child was punished for the sins of David. It had obviously done absolutely nothing wrong. Uh, and then, uh, we have other examples of, uh, uh, that... Oh, I, I skipped an example of, of, uh, kids being killed because their dad did something wrong.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, but then we've got this other one where, uh, Jeroboam is naughty. Uh, and then God says, "I will cut off from Jeroboam every male, both bond and free in Israel, and when- will consume the house of Jeroboam just as one burns up dung until it is all gone," um, as one does.

Dan Beecher Yeah, sure.

Dan McClellan And blah, blah, blah, blah. He will give up Israel, blah, blah, blah. Then Jeroboam's wife got up and went away, and she came to Tirzah. As she came to the threshold of the house, the child died. So another example of a newborn child of a sinner being killed by God for the sin of the father.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher I think-

Dan McClellan And, and so when it comes to, like, pro-life stuff as well, it's like God w- will happily kill an infant, a newborn.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and, you know, when it comes to fetuses in a womb, like that is not even a question.

Dan Beecher That's not, yeah.

Dan McClellan God's like, "Yeah, we don't care about this." Um, so-

Dan Beecher I, I wanted to bring up one issue that, because, you know, this can seem like it's sort of just a funny, uh, a, a funny problem.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher But one of the things that I realized when I was researching this and when I was thinking about it was that I was raised in a religion, y- your, the religion that you're in-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... that believed, doesn't anymore, they disavowed this, but for the longest time they believed that the curse of Ham/the curse of Cain-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... was s- darkness. And, and that was the, that became the basis for a s- a whole series of incredibly racist-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... uh, and, and, you know, the Mormonism does not own this. This is something that, that was a, a sort of prominent idea, um-

Dan McClellan Yeah, in the 19th century

Dan Beecher ... for, for a while.

Dan McClellan And long before that.

Dan Beecher So it's not like this is harmless. These, these ideas of generational curses-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... it became, you know, it was, it was the reason, it, it was presented as the-

Dan McClellan It was a rationalization for slavery. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. The reason why people could, uh, could be awful to an entire group of people for no reason other than, you know, their, uh, their skin color was different.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And that that was something inherited. You have that in the, in the-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... curse, uh, the skin of blackness with which the Lamanites were cursed. It was passed on to their, their children. Un- until somebody repented, and then magically, uh, their children, um, were not born with the curse. So yeah, the, the generational curse is absolutely something that is, um, baked into the foundations of, uh, even more recently developed religions like, like Mormonism-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... which is-

Dan Beecher And, and becomes a thing that is, that is, uh, just phenomenally harmful.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah.

Dan Beecher So, so I think I, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna come down on the side of Ezekiel on this one. I think I'm gonna- ... I'm gonna come down on the side of, uh, no.

Dan McClellan Well, re- regarding what you would prefer.

Dan Beecher Yeah, exactly.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes. Now, when it comes to what's in the Bible, I, I, you know, obviously Ezekiel's, Ezekiel's position is in there, but so is the direct opposite-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... contradictory position.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and there are gonna people, there are gonna be people who say, you know, along with the generational curse thing, that, that it's not- punishing, so to speak. It's just that the consequences... Like, if you have an alcoholic father, the consequences are probably gonna be felt by the children. And so they're gonna-- They say it that way. It's just the natural consequences of, um, you know, living with and, and being descended from, uh, sinful people. And, and that's, you know, we can put to the lie to that by just pointing to these examples with David and Roboam and- Tell that to Korah's family. Yeah, tell that to Korah's newborn infant, uh, who is, is, you know, still wandering around in Sheol somewhere in the upside down- Right ... trying to figure out how to get, how to get- Why? ... uh, back to their tent. So, uh-

Dan Beecher "Dad, tell me again why this happened."

Dan McClellan Um, oh, oh, I thought I would do a couple of things. You mentioned the, uh, the curse of Ham, the curse of Cain. Yeah. Ge- uh, generational curses. Two really good books, uh, that I would recommend if anybody would like l- to look into this more. David Goldenberg, uh, from 2003, The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christi- Christianity, and Islam is a really good one. And then from 2017, also David Goldenberg, Black and Slave: The Origins and History of the Curse of Ham. So if you're at all interested in finding out more about how that claimed generational curse has, uh, has corrupted so many, those are, tho- I think those are two of the best books you can find. Excellent.

Dan Beecher Well, all right. I think that's, uh, fascinating stuff. Crazy. Uh, get out there and break your generational curses if you can. Break them if you got them. All right. Uh, so anyway, if you would like to become a part of making this show happen, and, uh, also get access to weekly bonus content and a whole bunch of other things, including a warm feeling in your heart that you're, uh, making good things happen in the world, become one of our patrons. Go over to patreon.com and, uh, and sign up. Uh, it's patreon.com/dataoverdogma. Sign up there. You choose how much you wanna give. That's up to you. We appreciate everybody who gives us anything, and, uh, we also appreciate Roger Goudy for editing this thing, and we will talk to you again next time. Bye, everybody.