Hebrews 1 retrofits Jesus into the Old Testament

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things are good. Things are good. We're, uh-

Dan McClellan Can't complain.

Dan Beecher Ca- uh, I mean, I could. Uh- Okay ... there's plenty. Plenty to complain about. Just literally s- like, uh, just around the whole world.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, lots of stuff to complain about. But I'll tell you what we don't have to complain about is the fun that we are about to have-

Dan McClellan All right ...

Dan Beecher with our chapter and verse. Uh, we're gonna do Hebrews chapter one.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Uh, it's got a lot... It, as I read through it, I will say, it went in a bunch of directions, and I, as I was reading, I was like, "I don't r- I'm not 100% sure where our, where our conversation is gonna go."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So I'm pretty excited about that. So I vote we just dive right in to chapter and verse. All right. So here we are in Hebrews chapter one. It's the first chapter. And we should start by saying, uh, or I'm gonna start by asking you, uh, do we know who wrote this? What, Hebrews?

Dan McClellan We do not, no. There, there have been a, a variety of propositions. None of them are taken particularly seriously. Uh, there, there are folks out there who think Paul the Apostle wrote Hebrews. Uh, he didn't. Uh, that, that's not really something- This is- ... to be taken seriously.

Dan Beecher This is not a Pauline epistle?

Dan McClellan No, no, no, no, no. And some other names that have been thrown out there, Apollos, uh, is, is, uh, an early Christian.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan That some people thought. Uh, Priscilla or Aquila, this is a, a couple that's, that's mentioned, uh, in the New Testament. Basically, if they're somebody who sounds like they fit the bill and has been mentioned in the New Testament, somebody out there has probably suggested- ... they are the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews. But no, we don't really have any idea who wrote- Okay ... uh, the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Dan Beecher And what Hebrews, what, which Hebrews are we talking about here? Do we-

Dan McClellan Uh.

Dan Beecher I mean, like, all of the epistles are to, like... y- I'm used to epistles going to the people of Corinth, you know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Or, like, a city or a pla- like, I, w- I don't even know who the intended Hebrews are in this case.

Dan McClellan Well, here the idea is that it's being written to, uh, probably Jewish folks, Jewish- Okay ... Christians. Uh, it is... Uh, a lot of the passages that are being inter- interpreted here are being interpreted in kind of a rabbinic-y style. Mm. So, so, uh, but, but the point is to say that the Christian gospel and Jesus, uh, supersede or are greater than, uh, what is the, the Jewish tradition that is being inherited.

Dan Beecher Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're, that's actually clear once you read it, so that makes a lot of sense.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher It's so... So yeah, it's kind of a letter to people who haven't caught on yet to the fact that- ... Jesus is awesome. Uh, you better, you better get with it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Um, and it starts with, uh, sort of, it almost feels... I will say this, now that, uh, since we're thinking about it in those terms. It feels defensive.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher You know what I mean? It feels- Yeah ... uh, it feels like it's like, "Nuh-uh, but we- " ... uh, is how it starts.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And it, it may be, um, it may be attempting to push back against a, a Judaizing movement. Mm. The idea that followers of Jesus still have to, uh, be, you know, fully engaged, uh, in the, the law of Moses and have to be following all these rules, which is something that, you know, we probably see in the Gospel of Matthew. Some folks think we see it in the, the letter, uh, of James. Uh, but it, this is probably coming the last three decades of the first century CE, so somewhere between, like, 70 and 100 CE. So it's, it's not the last text that's being written, but it's fairly late, uh, in, in the tradition. And, and whether or not this is what kind of moves the needle the most towards a separation between Judaism and Christianity, uh, I don't know if there's a strong case to make for that, but, um, but it wouldn't be particularly surprising. Um, but, but yeah, it's trying to convince folks that, that Jesus is the Messiah. "This is the one we've been waiting for. This is the one who's been prophesied, uh, about. If you're on the fence regarding the identity of Jesus, uh, yeah, Jesus, ev- everything points to Jesus and, uh, Jesus is the man," so. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Uh, it, it starts out by sort of declaring that God had this son- Mm-hmm ... and the, and that a son is better than angels. Son trump- it, like, it, we're building a hierarchy here.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And, uh, and angels are below. Like, it's God, and now we're slotting in Jesus above angels.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, and this is interesting 'cause there's, there are all kinds of ways that, um, that this speaks to some of what's going on in this time period and even after. 'Cause you have, in this time period, no doubt, but, but definitely, uh, in the centuries after, in late antiquity, you have angels as, um, kind of intercessors for people to God. You have all kinds of, uh, curses and blessings, and you have bowls with, uh, with, uh, text on them, and were invoking the names of all these angels. Greco-Roman period Judaism saw this explosion of, of contemplation of, uh, names and missions and personalities and, and hierarchies associated with angels. Mm. Uh, and so they become kind of the, the mediators between heaven and earth. And- Yeah,

Dan Beecher I remember first Enoch going crazy about the angels.

Dan McClellan Yeah, a- awful lot about angels. And, and the idea here seems to be that, um- No, we've got, we've got something better than that. And I was, I was looking at the Greek and, and I was kind of surprised by some of the, um, the alliteration here because Hebrews 1:1, the first verse, it has how many words in it? 5, 10, or 12 total words if even including definite articles, and one, two, three, four, five of them begin with the letter P.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So there's a, there's a lot of alliteration. You've got polymeros, polytropos, pale, ah, patrasin, prophetis. You, you've, it is a very kind of, uh, there's definitely a prose thing going on here, uh, that doesn't come through in translation. But, but yeah, you have, "Long ago, God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days, he has spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed heir of all things through whom he created the worlds." And, and so it's like, yeah, we used to do things with prophets. By the way, angels ain't no thing.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan And, um, the, you know, I, you imagine that we would go into talking about why Jesus is better than the prophets, but no, we go into

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah, it does-

Dan McClellan ... why Jesus is better than angels.

Dan Beecher It does quickly pivot off of the prophets. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... it, it, it does in verse three, it, it's, it's all about his glory. It says he... This is in reference to Jesus. "He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. Uh, when he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs."

Dan McClellan Yeah, and this is interesting because there is a tradition of, of, um, a, a head angel who is endowed with the divine name.

Dan Beecher Hmm. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, you know, this pops up later in rabbinic literature, uh, with Metatron. Metatron is the Adonai HaQedem or the lesser Adonai whose name is the same as his master's. And, um, you have in San- I think it's Sanhedrin 38B where a certain heretic comes to Rav Idi and says, "Hey, in Exodus 24, Adonai says, 'Come up to Adonai.' Why doesn't Adonai say, 'Come up to me?'" And Rav Idi says, "Oh, you, you silly heretic. The Adonai in the passage is not the actual Adonai. That's Metatron because-"

Dan Beecher Interesting

Dan McClellan ... and then quotes, uh, uh, Exodus 23:21, "My name is in him." Therefore, th- this angel Metatron carries around the divine name, and so can be referred to by the divine name. And, and we have something similar going on here 'cause it seems to me that, you know, you have in, in the, the, the hymn in Philippians 2, you have in the Gospel of John, you have in a number of places this idea that Jesus has been given the divine name.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so the, in my opinion, that's kind of riffing on the name-bearing angel tradition and is kind of borrowing from it. And here the author seems to be saying, "Pfft, angels? Nah. Jesus has a better name given to him than, than these silly angels." And so it- it's almost kind of appropriating that, uh, that claim and saying, "No, the angels don't have the name. It's, it's Jesus who has the name." And then you get verses five through 14, which I think are gonna be the meat of our discussion here-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... where, uh, it's basically the, this, this segment is labeled in the NRSVue, "The Son is superior to angels."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And we basically just get a bunch of quotations of passages from the Hebrew Bible about how Jesus is better than the angels.

Dan Beecher And can I just say, when I first read this, I didn't know where these quotations were from. I had to look it up.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher But I assumed that they were New Testament quotations-

Dan McClellan Hmm

Dan Beecher ... because they all sound and they're all made to sound like they are about Jesus specifically.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then when I went and looked them up, I'm like, oh. Oh, no, these aren't originally about Jesus. They're just being leveraged-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in a different way, and it, I, it's a very confusing device to me.

Dan McClellan Well, and, and this is how these passages would've worked in Greco-Roman period Judaism, which was ver- and, and this is even coming after, I, I think you could probably say Greco-Roman period Judaism is over around 70 CE. That's where the, the temple is destroyed, and this is coming after that. Um, but in this time period, they're, they're reading things very messianically, and particularly in the Septuagint.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so anything that seems to have a kind of squishy, unknown referent where we're, we're not sure who this is, or we might be sure who this is. We're gonna talk about one verse where if you look up the original, it says, "This is who I'm talking about."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And it's not the Messiah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, but the, things are being reread messianically.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And so I, I think that's what the author is doing here. According to the tradition that they have inherited, these passages get read messianically even though that's not what they were originally doing. Um-

Dan Beecher Well, yeah. I mean, uh, the first thing that we find is, uh, in verse five, it says, "For, for to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son. Today I have begotten you'"? And I think I can be forgiven for assuming that that was a New Testament reference.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Wh- wh- where is that? What is, what is, "You are my Son. Today I have begotten you"?

Dan McClellan This is from Psalm two.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, uh, it's verse seven, uh, which says, if we go look at the Psalm in the NRSVue, says, "I will tell the decree of the Lord," or of Adonai. "He said to me, 'You are my Son. Today I have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'" And this is talking to the Davidic king.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And so the idea really is that the king is the one who, uh, is kind of adopted into divinity. Uh, it might be an enthronement idea-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... that on the, the, the ceremony of, of the king's enthronement is the, the event of the adoption of the king by God. Uh, there's, there's a wonderful book written by, um, by John Collins and Adele Collins, uh, called King and Messiah as Son of God, which reviews how, um, the king and the Messiah could be conceptualized as the Son of God. And so Psalm 2 is, is a part of this. It plays into it.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, but if you're reading this messianically, the Davidic king is long gone.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan There's no hope of really any return, and so the tradition gets renegotiated, and we're not looking for a human king. We're actually looking for a Messiah who is coming in the Davidic line. Um, and you know, in, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, you see two different kinds of Messiahs. You see the Messiah ben David, the, the political kingly Messiah, and then the Messiah ben Yosef, the priestly Messiah. And so Jesus is kind of combining the two because later on in Hebrews, you're gonna talk about how Jesus is the, uh, the priest after-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... the order of Melchizedek. And, uh, but here we're appealing to rhetoric that has to do with the king from Psalm 2:7.

Dan Beecher Yeah, okay. Uh, I'm still... It's so interesting. I'm still sort of hung up on this, uh, you know, this Psalm talking about, "You are my son. Today I have begotten you."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And then later, all of the, the, the Jesus stuff being like, "My only begotten son."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It, uh, it's... If you're not reading carefully, it, it's, yeah, uh, it, I don't know. It- That, it's just-

Dan McClellan Well-

Dan Beecher ... interesting because, because the way that the New Testament talks about these phrases or uses these phrases, it's pretending that these phrases have never been used before.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Or- You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan ... at least have not been used in other ways.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But yeah, yeah. And, and you have the, uh, the, the whole Son of God thing is also somewhat Greco-Roman 'cause you, you have, uh, like the beginning of, of the Gospel of Mark, Mark 1:1, the good news or the gospel, the beginning of the good news of, uh, Jesus Christ, and then whether or not the Son of God, uh, line is there is, is a text critical thing. But we have, we have inscriptions. The Priene inscription, for instance, talks about, uh, the good news of the coming into the world of the god Augustus, who is-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... who is also a son of God, and this predates the Gospel of Mark by almost a century. Um, and so the, yeah, they're, it's kind of dovetailing the Jewish idea of a king as son of God with a more Greco-Roman idea of an emperor or a king as son of God and, and kind of, um, treating that idea as encapsulating both of these by elevating the Son of God over both of them. Uh, so, so yeah, it's a renegotiation for sure.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and then I think that-

Dan Beecher And-

Dan McClellan Go ahead.

Dan Beecher I was just gonna say, presumably within the Psalm, there's no divinity imparted, uh, as the Son of God.

Dan McClellan That's, that's an open question. I think there are a lot of scholars who would say that there is a sense in which the king is divine.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Now, now not the God of Israel. It's, it's not a Trinitarian notion of divinity, but that there could be a sense in which the God, uh, the, the king is divine. Certainly, the king was, was understood to be, in some sense, divine in the nations around Israel, and as we're gonna see, the king gets called God, uh, in another Psalm. So-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Uh, all right. Well, let- ... let's keep moving then. Um, what are we on? Six? Verse six?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, and again, when he, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Uh, of the angels, he says, "He makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire." Uh, where are these from?

Dan McClellan Well, the, uh... So first we have, "Let all God's angels worship him," which is a, a, an artifact of the Septuagint's translation-

Dan Beecher Oh

Dan McClellan ... of a passage from probably Deuteronomy 32:43. Now, if you look up Deuteronomy 32:43 in a, in a Bible today, it's not gonna say anything about this.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan But based on the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scroll fragment, we know that the Hebrew originally said, "Worship him all gods." And this, and this actually, uh, is, uh, something that we find in Psalm 97:7. It says the exact same thing, "Worship him all gods."

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And I think that Psalm 97:7 is quoting this, uh, original version of Deuteronomy 32:43. But when we go into the Septuagint, uh, we have, uh, two different versions of the one statement. None of them exactly match, but it has, uh, "O- do obeisance to him, all sons of God."

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And then, uh, "Rejoice, all the nations with his people." And then it says, "And strengthen him all the angels of God." And-

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah, so, so we got gods, which then get reinterpreted as either sons of God or angels of God, and then in Hebrews, they decide to go with the angels and say, "Let all God's angels worship him." So the Son is greater than the angels because the angels have to worship the Son.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Of course, that's only if you're looking in the Septuagint. If you're looking in the Hebrew, it's just Elohim- And, and the, the worship hymn is not directed at the Messiah-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in Deuteronomy 32:43. It's directed at Adonai, the, the God of Israel. So, uh-

Dan Beecher This is where it got interesting because for me, because this chapter repeatedly kind of conflates Jesus with God or like-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... continually like kind of, but also speaks about Jesus in very separate terms. So I can understand, like, this, this is the first time I've read something and just been like, "I can't..." Like, if I were in an argument, i- if I were imagining an argument between a Trinitarian and a non-Trinitarian-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... they could both make strong cases from just this chapter, it feels like to me.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And, and there, there are an awful lot of people who, who think of, uh, this chapter as, like, one of the most, uh, one of the highest Christologies in, in the whole New Testament. But I mean, it is problematic 'cause if we go back to the Hebrew Bible, it's clearly not talking about any mediator- ... any son or anything like that. It's j- it's just the, the song of Moses telling all the other gods of the nations to worship Adonai.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And when you are reading it in the Septuagint translation, that's kind of lost. And so the, the author of Hebrews doesn't think that it's talking about that. The author of Hebrews thinks it's God telling the angels to worship the Son, uh, and that's just not what's going on. And then the, um, the next verse is, uh, do, do, do, do, "Of the angels," he says, "He makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire." And this is, uh, this is Psalm 104, which in the, translated from the Hebrew says, "You make the winds your messengers." In the Hebrew there is malachav, um, which is actually his messengers. "Fire and flame your ministers." Uh, so what, how this is relevant to the question of- ... uh, of, uh, the Son's relationship to the angels is meh.

Dan Beecher Well, it goes on. So it says, "Of the angels," he says-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... "He makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire. But of the Son-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... he says," and then here's another quote, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and your scepter of righteousness the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And I was lost. Uh, I will admit, I read that and I was like, "How are, how is that making a point?" I don't know what the point is that's being made here.

Dan McClellan Well, I, I think the, the point is that, um, this is God talking to Jesus in the second person. And so when it says, "Your throne, O God," this is the Father calling Jesus God.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So this is, uh-

Dan Beecher Oh, wow. Yeah, all right.

Dan McClellan Yeah, 'cause, uh, all of these are about what God's saying.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Verse five, "Did God ever say?" And again, "When he brings, he says. Of the angels, he says. But of the Son," he says, so it's comparing.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, you know, "He makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire." Big whoop. "Of the Son," he says, he calls him God.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, um, "Your throne is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom." Uh, again, we're in the Psalms. We're in Psalm 45 here.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, and here is where you've gotta go back to the beginning of Psalm 45. Uh, this is a, uh, ode for a royal wedding.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And, um, the first verse says, "My heart overflows with a goodly theme. I address my verses to the king."

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan "My tongue is like the pen of a ready scribe." And then we have in the second person the psalmist addressing the Davidic king. And, uh, it starts in verse two, "You are the most handsome of men." And, um, and in the Hebrew, this is bene adam. This is the children of humanity. This is, you are the most handsome human.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So this is not talking about any divine Messiah. "Grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you forever. Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one, in your glory and majesty. In your majesty ride on victoriously for the cause of truth and to defend the right; let your right hand teach you dread deeds. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; the peoples fall under you. Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever." And so here the psalmist is addressing the king, and in the vocative case, calls the king God. "O God." And this is not-

Dan Beecher Interesting

Dan McClellan ... and, and so it's just Elohim.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this is not to say that the king is the very God of Israel, but to recognize the, the divine nature of the king because of his position. This is a relational deity-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, not necessa- And you know, you, you have this elsewhere. You have this in, in Exodus 7:1 where God tells Moses, "I will make you a god to Pharaoh." And, um, you have other examples of it. Even in John chapter 10 when the people accuse Jesus of blaspheming because even though he's a human, he makes himself divine. Jesus says, "Hey, your own scriptures say humans can be gods. Look at Psalm-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... 82 where it says, 'You are gods.' If the, the humans to whom the word of God came can be called gods, you can't get on my case for saying I'm the Son of God." So y- you have examples of, of humans being referred to using divine terms, which is what's going on here. And then in verse seven, "You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." And there are ways To reinterpret this, like, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever," you could say, "Your divine throne, your throne is of God-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... and it will endure forever and ever." And then you've got, "Therefore God, your God." You know, that could be, um, apposition. Therefore, the guy up there, God, that is to say, your God.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Or it could be using the vocative again and saying, "Therefore, you, God, the God of you-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... that God up there-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... the other God, uh, has anointed you."

Dan Beecher Yes. You, you are the subordinate God to another God-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... sort of thing. By the way, I should just clarify one phrase that I didn't necessarily understand. You said this is to a Davidic king.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Does that mean just a king in the line of David? Or what does that-

Dan McClellan Yeah. I, I think the idea in the Psalms here is that this is, this is talking about a king in the line of David. This, this would've been written well after, uh, David was alive. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... the, the idea is that David's, because David's rule is, um, you know, divinely appointed and, and approved and everything like that, everyone who's coming in that line is, is a part of the same thing, which is why it doesn't s- explicitly name it as only David, but, uh, probably any king who's operating within that line, or if it's written in the exilic period, or at least after the Davidic line was broken, it could be just kind of fantasizing about a Davidic line.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, but yeah. The, so, so when it says, "Of the Son," he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," that's a reinterpretation.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the, the passage did not refer to the king as the very God of Israel, and so we don't really need to read the author's, uh, quotation of the Septuagint's version of this as identifying Jesus as the very God of Israel either. There are other ways to understand what it means to call a human God, Elohim or a Theos, and, and those other ways make more sense of what's going on here. Because, you know, you would... I mean, the, the author doesn't have to go through all these quotations. If, if the author is saying, "Well, Jesus is God," you don't need to be like, "Well, God said Jesus was better than the angels." You, you can just say, "Well, Jesus is God. Obviously, Jesus is better than the angels," because God created the angels, and the angels are all-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... subordinate to him. This is about God talking about a separate being.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah, it does seem like this is... Yeah, the argument here is not Jesus is God. The argument is Jesus is below God, but above all the other sort of heavenly beings-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah

Dan Beecher ... or, or, or divine beings. Um-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... it goes on. Let's see. Do we... Uh, it, I mean, it basically goes on from there. The next quote is, uh, is, it says, uh, "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth and the heavens." This one kind of took me for, uh, threw me for a loop. Um, so, so this is, again, the, this is the, the author of Hebrews saying of, uh, saying that this is something that God said of the Son. Uh, so he says, and it, basically, God said of the Son, "In the beginning, Lord, you fou- you founded the earth, and the heavens are, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain. They will all wear out like clothing. Like a cloak, you will roll them up, and like clothing, they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end." So is this saying somehow that Jesus created the earth? 'Cause that's kind of what I'm reading. What I'm reading is-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... that God is saying of the Son that he... And, and God is calling, uh, at least according to the author of Hebrews, God is calling Jesus, "Lord," and saying, "You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

Dan McClellan Yeah. This is, uh, and this is from Psalm 102. I'll, I'll just read what we've got here, where it, starting in verse 24, says, "O my God, I say, 'Do not take me away at the midpoint of my life.' Who, you whose years endure throughout all generations. Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you endure. They will all wear out like a garment. You change them like clothing, and they pass away. But you are the same, and your years have no end." And, um, there-

Dan Beecher So this is a psalmist speaking to Adonai himself.

Dan McClellan Yes. In, in the Psalms, this is definitely, uh, the psalmist speaking to, uh, God. Now, let me see if the, the word for Lord there is... 'Cause in, in Hebrews it says, uh, "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth." Um, and Psalm 102 doesn't s- Okay, so in Ps- in the ancient Greek translation, it includes Kyrie. It includes Lord.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan That's not in the Hebrew.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan Um, it just says, "Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth." Where is that? Um, 102. Um, yeah. L'fanayim, uh, in the before times, the earth you established.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So we have Kyrie, which is the vocative of, uh, of Lord, and, and so this is not a substitution for the tetragrammaton. This is just saying Lord in the, in the secular sense, which the, um, the psalmist seems to be treating as a reference to Jesus and not as a reference to the very God of Israel. And let me see if, um, Psalm 102, "I said, 'My God...'" Okay, so, um- Yeah, it looks like the Septuagint. So in the, in the Hebrew it says, "Oh my God, I say, do not take me away at the midpoint of my life." And in Hebrew that is Omar Eli. And Eli means my God. But if you don't have the vowels right there, you could understand that to be, um, saying, uh, "He said to me."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Like, the consonants there are identical.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan "He said to me," versus, uh, "My God, I say," uh, or something like that. And, and I'm looking at the, the, uh, Septuagint of Psalm 101:25, and it looks like, um, it says, um, he, uh... Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. "He answered him in the ways, 'Tell me the paucity of my days. Do not take me away at the midpoint of my days.'" Verse 25. Yeah, it, it doesn't mention God, uh, in the, um, in the ancient Greek.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And so we, and, in fact, it, it does have the me, uh, which suggests that the, the Greek translator has misunderstood Eli to mean to me or something like that. So God has been removed from the original Psalm, and we're reinterpreting this as a reference to somebody else who, yeah, was, uh, founded the Earth, and the heavens are, are the work of your hands. So it sounds like that's talking about, the, the author of Hebrews understands that to be talking about Jesus.

Dan Beecher I mean, just the language of it is surprising to me, to he- Like, it, it, what's surprising to me is that the author of Hebrews sees that language and believes that that is God talking. Like, that is not the, the way that God talks about anybody else. That is very clearly the kind of language that other people use to talk about their god.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And when you're, when you're leveraging the scriptures, though, they become kind of this just amorphous source of rhetoric.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And you can, and you can make it be whatever you need it to be. Uh, you know, ripped from its context, it sounds an awful lot like, uh, it could be talking about the Son. When you go actually read, uh, what's going on there, that's not the case. And then verse 13, "And to which of the angels has he ever said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?'" And now we're, we're going back to the Psalms, specifically Psalm 110, the most quoted Hebrew Bible passage in the entire New Testament. Um, but this is, uh, God speaking to David. Mm. Only because you have, uh, in, in the Greek translation, it's the Kyrios saying to my Kyrios. Um, and so if you understand Kyrios to be a substitution for the tetragrammaton, then it's kind of squishy. Which one of these is, is God? Which one is, is not? Um, but yeah, this, this is understood as, as God speaking to Jesus as Lord or the Messiah as Lord. The reality is that the my Lord in Hebrew is, is kind of just a secular, uh, way to refer to the king. The psalmist is saying, "God spoke to my Lord," meaning the king. Right. "And said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'"

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan Uh, the, and then in the Hebrew it goes on, "The Lord sends out from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes. Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day you lead your forces on the holy mountains. From the womb of the morning, like dew, your youth will come to you." Um, and so th- this is just talking about, again, a Davidic king, and it's just been plucked from its context, divested of that royal context and, and, uh, shellacked with a more messianic interpretation that allows the, uh, the author of Hebrews to say, "Yeah, this is talking about the Son." Not knowing-

Dan Beecher You know what's gonna, you know what's gonna be my favorite part of this segment, is that people are going to come at us and say, "You're taking it out of context." And this is literally about other, about the author of this work taking a whole bunch of stuff out of con- Like- Yeah ... I guess taking Bible verses out of context is an, is a time-honored tradition-

Dan McClellan Oh, it's- ...

Dan Beecher that even happened in the Bible. Yes. So that's kind of amazing. It's happens all the

Dan McClellan time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And is, and is not even the New Testament. You can go look in the Hebrew Bible and see the Hebrew Bible taking other Hebrew Bible verses out of context- Yeah ... to be renegotiating them. And then the fi- Well,

Dan Beecher but Dan, you're taking the Bible- The Bible taking the Bible out of context, you're taking that out of context.

Dan McClellan Well, and, and what will, what frequently gets asserted is that, well, this is inspired.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so whatever they said it meant, that's right.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, even if it's not what was intended in the original, uh, context.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Because they're inspired, they get to make it mean whatever they want. And then, uh, verse 14, the final verse of the chapter, "Are not all angels spirits in the divine service sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" Which is just making it sound like angels are, are subservient. Angels are- Yeah ... um, no big thing.

Dan Beecher The bell boys of heaven. Uh, really.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes.

Dan Beecher Um, all right. Well, there you g- there you have it. Uh, Hebrews coming in hot, uh, with a bunch of, wi- with, with a sort of legalistic take on w- on, on Jesus' divinity by, uh, misinterpreting a whole bunch of stuff.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. Fun, fun stuff. Well, if you would like to become a part of keeping this show rocking and rolling, we would sure love to have you do so. Uh, head on over to patreon.com, where you can get early ad free versions of every episode as well as the, uh, patrons only after party that is fun for everybody, and you can ask us questions there where, that we will answer. All sorts of good stuff. Head on over to patreon.com/dataoverdogma to do that. Thanks so much to Roger Gaudy for editing the show. Uh, we will talk to you again next time. Bye everybody.