The Bible Got Women Wrong. Driscoll Just Agrees With It.

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan This is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same, all in a pleasing baritone. As far as I can tell. I don't actually know what, uh, where, where my voice register is, but...

Dan Beecher Yeah, well, baritone enough. A barely-tone- Yep ... is, uh- ... we'll go with that. Uh-

Dan McClellan Works for me.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So today, we're gonna be having some fun. We're taking issue with, uh, a real peach of a fella- ... uh, named Mark Driscoll. And if you know that name, you either like him because you're terrible- ... or you- Then

Dan McClellan you're probably not listening to our show ...

Dan Beecher you're not listening to our show. Uh, or you're hate listening, and in, in which case, welcome. Leave a comment.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, so we... Yes. Uh, Mark Driscoll is a pastor and a, uh-

Dan McClellan Still?

Dan Beecher A... I'm, I mean, again- ... because he was fired from his Mars Hill job-

Dan McClellan Right, right, right, right ...

Dan Beecher uh, for being a jerk. And then- Yes ... there, there are other congregations that are like, "Hey, jerk is what we're going for."

Dan McClellan We like jerks. Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan We don't have enough jerkishness in Christianity these days.

Dan Beecher So I will... Yes. We're gonna be taking issue with some misogyny. This time it's misogyny. Other times he's got other sh- stuff on, on the, on the front burner, but, uh, we're going with misogyny. So why don't we dive straight into taking issue? All right. So, uh, the good brother Driscoll has had some stuff to say. Um, should we just dive in with the-

Dan McClellan Yeah ... w- it,

Dan Beecher it, you know, it was a, a clip from his, from his YouTube show or whatever that, the, that he himself clipped- ... and he himself put out into the world.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher This is something that he wants us to know he believes.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan And he's, uh... We can go... I, I'm happy to just read the transcript if, if that's okay with you.

Dan Beecher Sure. Sure.

Dan McClellan Okay. "So and so I always..." And, and this is Mark Driscoll now. Yes. "And so I..."

Dan Beecher We would very much like to distinguish ourselves- Yes ... from the beliefs- ... uh, that we are about to be speaking.

Dan McClellan Yes. So Mark Driscoll, quote, "And so I always say, you know, it's no problem being married to a strong woman. It's a big problem being married to an independent woman." "And there's a big difference between a woman who's independent and a woman who's strong."

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan "A woman who's strong comes along and she strengthens you."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "An independent woman, she's fighting you, and she's exhausting you."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan "And, and what most guys don't really consider is it says in 1 Corinthians 11, it says that the woman is the glory of the man. So I always use this analogy that the woman is like a garden, and the man is like a gardener. And a lot of guys look at a married woman, they're like, 'I wish I could find a girl like that.' That's like looking at a piece of land that nobody's, you know, ever worked on, versus looking at a place where for 30 years a guy's been cultivating his land." Eesh. "And, and you look at the land, and you're like, 'Look at that beautiful property.'"

Dan Beecher Oh, my God.

Dan McClellan Like-

Dan Beecher Okay, sorry. I just- ... I, I've heard this before, and I'm still- Yeah ... like reacting viscerally. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. "Like you know how much work that guy put in to take it from raw land to beautiful garden." Ugh. "That's marriage. Like, you marry a woman and it's like, is she going to follow my leadership? Will she allow me to love her and serve her and disciple her and walk with her and cultivate her so that she becomes more fruitful and more beautiful over time? And so most guys, they're looking for a park. They're not, they're not look..." Is that, that's an odd statement.

Dan Beecher Yeah. They're looking-

Dan McClellan They're looking... Okay. Yeah, somebo- somebody's already dressed it up for them. "They're not looking for a woman who's willing to be led. And if you get a woman that's willing to follow your leadership, and you're willing to put in the work, then eventually what you realize is we have a fruitful marriage and have a beautiful wife." Yikes. Wow. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yikes.

Dan McClellan So, yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. So let's all, uh, take a moment and- Yeah ... sort of cleanse ourselves.

Dan McClellan Yes. Serenity now.

Dan Beecher I don't know. If you've got some sage, feel free to burn it to get- ... rid of the, uh, the, the, the vibes.

Dan McClellan I'm gonna wash down those words with a swig of, of, uh, my Diet Dr. Pepper.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and that will, uh... Yes, bubble away-

Dan Beecher It, it will be- ...

Dan McClellan the corrosion of this- ...

Dan Beecher insufficient to really- Yes ... fully cleanse. So let's dive in. Let's cleanse ourselves by tearing this apart.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan So to begin- Yeah ... 1 Corinthians 11, this is, this is this idea that the... And, and people have seen a drawing of three umbrellas, one on top of the other- Right ... with the, each one below a smaller umbrella. The

Dan Beecher classic.

Dan McClellan And the woman is at the bottom.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And the, the, um... And this is the idea that, uh, that Jesus is the head of the man, man is the head of the woman- Right ... and the woman is the glory of the man. And-

Dan Beecher Never mind the fact that that drawing never understood what, how, how umbrellas work. Uh, but there you go.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, the idea there is that a woman exists basically as a supplement to a man, as a, as an accoutrement- Yeah ... of a man. The, the woman's identity is found in the man's identity. And this, and this goes back to the ancient world, where a woman's social identity was literally- subordinate to the identity of the paterfamilias of the household of which she was a part, whether that was her father or an older brother or her, her master if she was enslaved, or her husband.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan The man was the one with the identity, and the woman had no independent social identity. And here, it sounds like Marc is endorsing precisely that. She's not independent. You don't want an independent woman. You don't want a woman with her own identity.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan You want a woman who is willing to be basically a supplement to your identity. And-

Dan Beecher You, you want a robot that you get to program.

Dan McClellan He, yeah, and, and this is a way that weak men and small men can protect their self-esteem.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because if you are married to an independent woman, then she has her own identity that is not reliant on you, and that makes folks like Marc feel lesser.

Dan Beecher It's so funny.

Dan McClellan Because they don't really have, they don't really have a full complete self-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... until they have a woman that they can consider their subordinate-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... that they can consider their-

Dan Beecher But the second that that woman has opinions or has, uh, you know, has anything to say or brings something of her own to the table, as he said-

Dan McClellan Or-

Dan Beecher ... he thi- he sees that an independent woman, she's fighting you and she's exhausting you, or she's contributing. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, what are you talking about? The, his whole garden metaphor just mystifies me. Because you know who gardens a woman the best? The woman.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, in a, like, you're, you're a garden, too. If we're gonna s- if we're gonna make a human a garden, we're all gardens.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And, and we all... Although that's a dumb metaphor. Like-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, I think the, the part that really a- allows what's under the surface to bubble to the surface is when he says, "Look at that beautiful property."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And he means property in, in the sense of real property, land.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, but really he's betraying that he believes a woman is a man's property.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan That this is, this is something I possess and own. This is not someone with their own personhood and agency. This is just someone who exists to complement and supplement me and my agency and identity. And I, it, for me, this goes back to, again, the ancient world. Um, I made, I made a video recently where I talked about virginity, which is a, a biologically meaningless thing. Like, it, it's a social construct.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And it is something that we frequently see, uh, talked about on, on social media. You know, body counts.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan You, you've seen, you've seen guys talk about body counts and-

Dan Beecher Yes. I have

Dan McClellan ... um-

Dan Beecher Don't do that, by the way

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh- Just as a, just as a, a Data Over Dogma PSA, don't-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... don't talk about body count.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's gross.

Dan McClellan Grow, grow the hell up. Um- But all of that is rooted in the perception of a woman as a commodity to be bought and sold.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because when, when we look in the Bible and we see this in-

Dan Beecher Or at very least, a commodity to be used. Like-

Dan McClellan Well, I, I'm, I'm gonna argue that it is rooted in the economic, um, transmission of a woman's body, uh, specifically her sexual availability and her procreative capacities, 'cause we see this in the Bible.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan I've, I've talked, uh, I, I'm pretty sure we've talked about it on the program.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Deuteronomy 22, 28, and 29, where we have, well, actually verse 22 all the way through 29. We've got these laws about what happens if, if a man is found sleeping with the wife of an- another man.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's death penalty for both of them. What happens when a man finds a virgin who is betrothed? And then it gives two examples where he vio- he sexually assaults her, and another where it seems to be consensual based on the stupid logic of the, the Deuteronomistic author there. Uh, and it's the death of the man in both cases, and the death of the girl if they think it's consensual. And then what to do if a man sexually assaults a virgin who is not betrothed. And then it's a fine.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the guy marries her, and he's never allowed to divorce her. And the, what's, what's so ridiculous about this is that the punishment is different depending on the, uh, who has possession of the woman.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan If it's a husband who has possession of the woman, that's a sacrosanct relationship, the violation of which incurs the death penalty. If it's a father, really all he's out is a bride price. So that's how you make the victim whole-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... is you have the perpetrator pay the bride price and-

Dan Beecher The victim not being the woman. Right.

Dan McClellan The, the primary victim is the owner of the woman-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... the one who stood to benefit monetarily from marrying her off. And in a world where a woman was a commodity to be bought and sold, when you purchase that commodity, you expect to be the first one to set foot inside, to cross the threshold, so to speak, and you expect that woman to have a shiny new car smell and to be in pristine condition. That's where, like, that's the at root what's going on with this idea of virginity. The only sense in which virginity could possibly be socially relevant is in the sense that, well, I don't want anyone to have been there before me.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan I'm getting this thing, and I want to be the first one to have broken ground, to use Marc's garden metaphor.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so Marc is, is really allowing that kind of just troglodytish conceptualization of women to, to bubble to the surface in referring to her as a piece of property-

Dan Beecher I think-

Dan McClellan ... a piece of property that he has ownership over-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... he controls, but is also there to show off to other men. So it's always all about- Mark's self-esteem. It's always all about his identity. We-

Dan Beecher I think one of the things that's, uh, uncomfortable about this discussion is that Mark Driscoll, as we, you know, you, he referred to Corinthians, you're talking about Deuteronomy, it's a biblically defensible position that he's taking.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Beecher And that's tricky. That, I mean, that's obviously rough because we are, we are explicitly saying the Bible gets this very wrong in a bunch-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... of places. Like, the Bible is kind of awful about that. Um, so, and that's funny that, you know, you're, you're still a believer. Uh, so I, I mean, but I think that that's part of the way that this show works, right? Is that we have to say, we have to be willing, if we're going to be honestly engaging with the Bible, to say, "We actually know better now. We actually know stuff that, that the authors of the Bible didn't know, and we can do a better job than the authors of the Bible did."

Dan McClellan And, and there are, and there are certainly things about which even somebody like Mark Driscoll, if he were forced to be honest about things, would say, "Yeah, we know better." When it comes to slavery-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... we know better. Uh, like, it's, the, that's just not up for serious debate. The notion that the Bible is accurate on its, uh, is, or at least is morally defensible on its perspective regarding slavery is a, a deeply unserious position. And, and Mark certainly is not going to swing in, in defense of slavery. Uh, although some have.

Dan Beecher Yeah, I was gonna say-

Dan McClellan Uh, recently some have.

Dan Beecher Yeah. We've been seeing-

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher ... Doug Wilson really trying to thread a needle on that-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... lately.

Dan McClellan But, but, you know, it was, in the, in the lifetime of my mother, there was a time when she was alive when she could not get a bank account, get a credit card-

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in her own name. She had to be married, and then her husband could get the credit card, and then she would get one of those credit cards. And, like, in, in the lifetime of my own mother, only, like, less than a decade before I was born, I think is when that was, uh, they put a stop to that. And there are, there ... It's, you know, the pendulum kind of swings back and forth. Uh, women's liberation movement is now, I think the pendulum's moving in the opposite direction. We've had so many people who on social media quite prominently are advocating for taking the vote away from women.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And talking about how, you know, the, even here in Utah, up in Davis County, I think we had a, a precinct chair up in Davis County say that soci- all of society's problems began when women, uh, were allowed out of the kitchen to vote.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and s- m- and you have people who are defending slavery. You have people who are defending... Uh, there, there are people today who suggest there's no such thing as marital rape, that once you're married, that your body is the property of your spouse, and you even see this in I Corinthians. I Corinthians 7, you'll see a lot of people go, "No, look at that. Look at that. Look at that. It says that the wife has just as much a right to the husband's body." How many times do we see that playing out-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... in, in marriages all around the US today?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Where the wife demands satisfaction, and then, uh, takes it-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... against the will, uh, of the husband. It does happen, but it happens far more and to far more de- deleterious effect for the other spouse, uh, in the other direction.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and there are people who say there's, there's nothing wrong with that, that the wife owes the husband her body, which is another conceptualization of, of a woman as, as property. So while... And, i- i- talking about the virginity thing, a lot of people point out, "Well, wait a minute. A lot of, uh a lot of churches emphasize the need for men to be virgins until they're married as well." The Latter-day Saint tradition certainly does that.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But they don't emphasize it nearly as much. And-

Dan Beecher Yeah, they d- yeah, they don't... The, the, the shame that attaches to women's loss of virginity-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... is, is an order of magnitude higher than that that attaches to a-

Dan McClellan Signi- yeah

Dan Beecher ... to, to, to a man or a young man, a kid losing his virginity.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, and I think that is rooted in the perception that, that we expect a woman to be a piece of property that is in pristine condition.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan A man, the man, the man's body is not being, uh, in any sense entered or-

Dan Beecher Or, or soiled or whatever

Dan McClellan ... yeah, or broken into or, or anything-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... like that. Um, and-

Dan Beecher Well, and it, and it, and there is a perception of, yeah, the... Again, I think you're right. Like, the woman is tarnishing the thing that she is supposed to then, uh, give over as a possession to the man. Whereas the man is just sort of soiling himself when he, when he loses his virginity before marriage. The woman is actually, like, ruining the gift, ruining the thing that goes to the man, ruining-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... the property, as you say, like, you know, that, that, or as Driscoll says. You know, Driscoll is, you're right, that he, like, that word, y- when he says, "Look at that beautiful property"-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... it, it may have been an accidental inference, uh, but it was obvious. Like-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... it is, it's clear from what he's saying that that's the thing. It li- You know, he-

Dan McClellan And if, and if the, if the transcription is correct and he says later on, "So most guys, they're looking for a park"-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... I, it sounds like what Mark's saying is A real man wants to be able to point to the woman and say, "I did all that. That was all me."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "I am not benefiting from anybody else's work. I am not coming, uh, in after someone else has already been there. I'm the one who is responsible for all this," which is, uh, which is going back to, uh, a sense of pride.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan This is about, "I'm the only one who has, who has dug in this garden- Right ... and this is all me." So, and again, the woman there, is there to supplement the man.

Dan Beecher Well, and then she becomes a reflection of him.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And that, and he's, he's explicit about that, too. The idea is this per- and that becomes problematic g- uh, uh, on its own reca- in, uh, uh, in its own regard.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And we se- we start to see these men who, uh, you know, who demand that their woman look a certain way- Mm-hmm ... and act a certain way, not because it's, it, it's an expression of who she is, but because it's a reflection of who he is.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher "I want my woman to be blonde, have her hair long, have big boobs, have- Yeah ... whatever, because it reflects well on me- Yeah ... if she's putting out the image that I want to put out."

Dan McClellan Like Marty McFly's mom said to Biff, "You're the one who wanted me to have these things." That, that is...

Dan Beecher I, that, that must be from, uh, the second movie.

Dan McClellan That is from the second movie.

Dan Beecher Which I am, I've only seen once and, and vow never to see again. Um,

Dan McClellan that, but that's, that's a meta- that's Trump.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and m- and there's another example. You, the, the whole idea of, you know, you trade in for, for a younger, uh, woman because she's a reflection of, not necessarily your identity, but it's, it's a trophy wife.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's a way, i- in, in Mark's opinion, your beautiful wife is there to show off to other men to say, "See how good a man I am- Right ... that I was able to, uh, to secure, to bag this, uh, this beautiful wife whom I have cultivated over, over the years." And who-

Dan Beecher Well, and you're right to point out that, like, that's why trading, that's why these men, like, they're willing to cast out a, a woman that has, you know, really given a lot of time and effort and, and, uh, her whole life to this guy because she, you know, she aged, and now the garden looks different, uh, than, than he wants her to look.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I, I also think that the garden metaphor is particularly interesting because the Bible has a garden. Like, we have a very famous biblical garden, and very famously in that, the gardener is not the man. The gardener is God.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Or, or, or is the man, but then the woman is, is brought in as a, quote, "helper and partner."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So, like, she's not, she's also a gardener. Like, I think the idea, the entire idea of the garden metaphor is these two people are meant to garden together and, and build something with each other. You know what I mean? Uh, like, it's a partnersh- it's explicitly a partnership.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and, and the word that gets translated in the KJV, helpmeet- Mm-hmm ... uh, the idea is that this is someone who's equivalent to.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Not, and, and, you know, you can, you can massage the nuances a little bit and make it sound like it's not necessarily equivalent to so much as it is adequate for or something like that. Mm-hmm. But, but the idea is, the word is, uh, kenegdo, is across from him. In other words, you, you and I are right across from each other.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the, and the idea there is matching, sufficient, equivalent, something like that. But the, the helper is not necessarily the, the subordinate. The helper is, is... God is called a helper in, in many places.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan In fact, I, I think the, the ezer, helper, I think that's applied to God more than it is to humans. But at the same time, however, this is also coming from a, a, a deeply patriarchal society- Right ... where you then have the curse in Genesis 3, uh, uh, 15 or 16, where I think it's, um, forget which verse it is, but the idea is that the man will rule over the woman.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, you know, that's, that's what has somebody like Mark licking his chops. Uh, the, the opportunity to, to rule over, uh- Yeah ... a woman.

Dan Beecher It, it just, you know, you said it earlier, and it, it just, what... It, it's so clear that this, this kind of, uh, of an aesthetic, this kind of idea erupts out of deep insecurity.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, like, it's this sense that, like, "If I can't control everything, it's gonna get away from me," or, "I'm gonna lose it," or, "I'm not val- I'm not worthy if I'm not, uh, the one in control."

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And, and it, yeah, it becomes very obvi- you know, you, you look at modern, uh, psychology, you look at attachment theory, you look at all of these things, and it becomes very clear that, like, this is not the pathway to a happy marriage. It's the pathway to a good presenting marriage- Yeah ... that will be, that, that's gonna be miserable.

Dan McClellan Well, and, and you'll notice that so much of what Mark's concerned for is how his marriage looks to other people.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And how, what it makes other people think about him. It's, it's very much praying on the street corner. Yeah. It's very much trying to put on display your piety through this notion that your wife is supposed to be your, uh, your window dressing, uh, or something. And when, and when you look at Mark's rap sheet- Like, what, what did he get in trouble for? Domineering leadership.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Like, all, all of the, the trappings of an abusive, uh, control freak and a narcissist. That's, that's, uh, what, why... You know, and he hasn't changed.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan Because he's... It's not like he took accountability for and repented of all of the things that he was accused of doing.

Dan Beecher Right. He never- He, he- He never came out and said, "I've gone to so much therapy about this, and, uh, and I see now why what I did was bad"

Dan McClellan He just skedaddled and found a group that would let him take over.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and, which shows that all he's doing is preaching the same stuff-

Dan Beecher Well, and this-

Dan McClellan ... that got him in trouble.

Dan Beecher I-

Dan McClellan And he's just found a group that will allow him to do that.

Dan Beecher One of the things that, that this points out is the fact that those who want... Like, there, there are different ways that people feel the desire to preach to a, to be in front of a congregation. Some people who, who become pastors, who become priests, are doing it out of a genuine desire to help people, and a genuine desire-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... to, uh, to, to show love for their community.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then others get there because it's a, you know, it fulfills a narcissistic desire. It fulfills-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... this sense of like, "I, you know, I want to prove that I have power. I want to prove that I'm above other people," and stuff. And that's gonna be a huge percentage of pastors, you know what I mean? It's a, it's, it's the kind... It's exactly the kind of, of, uh, job that a narcissist will want. Yeah.

Dan McClellan It, and it's like, it's very much like politics. Uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and, and Plato lamented that, that the people who are probably best suited to run a republic are the people who are least likely to actually go out and, and seek office.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which is why they should be forced-

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan ... to, uh, to do it. But, uh, yeah, the, the folks who, who run from accountability from one congregation to another, and then preach this kind of just profoundly misogynistic understanding of a marriage relationship, uh, they're not, they're not getting any better at, at following Jesus-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... even according to the way they talk about Jesus, 'cause if you compare all, all of Mark's sermons, you'll find him talking about a, a very flowery picture of Jesus in, in some limited circumstances. But, but once it comes time to start talking about practical stuff like marriage and stuff like that, you're... Then you get into, uh, old school, domineering Mark Driscoll-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... the kind of stuff that, that got him run out of Mars Hill.

Dan Beecher Well, I guess the, the, the takeaway then is that in both your marriage and in your church, believe the red flags. Get out. Uh, it's, uh... You, you, you don't... You, you deserve better-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... uh, if, if, if they're coming at you like Driscoll is, anyway. Well, uh, that's... That'll do it, I guess, for our takedown of the, of, of Pastor Driscoll. If you, dear friends, would, uh, have enjoyed this, please like, subscribe, all of those things. Uh, you can become a member, a g- a person here on YouTube. Eventually I will know what the hell I'm talking about with this- ... I promise. But also, you can become a patron over on Patreon. Uh, that's patreon.com/dataoverdogma, where you can get early ad-free versions of all of our shows as well as the, uh, the patrons-only content, which we do every week, and where you can ask us questions. Uh, so head on over there if you want to. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing. Thanks to Sam for being our producer, and we will talk to y'all again next week. Next time-

Dan McClellan Amen

Dan Beecher ... whenever we do it.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.