Esther: Wilder Than You Remember

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher. And this is

Dan McClellan Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. Before I ask how you are, Dan, I was just thinking, we, we just watched the episode of Community where they take Grifting 101. And, uh, and I just, I just thought of, uh, what, uh, what's his name? Is it Matt Smith? Um, where he says, "And this is Grifting 101." And, uh, I should do a Data Over Dogma intro like that. Um-

Dan Beecher And this- ... is Data Over Dogma.

Dan McClellan New York City. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Dan Beecher We'll see, we'll see how brave you get on that pause.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher How long you, how long you can sustain it without being ridiculous.

Dan McClellan Well, I ha- I'd have to let you know beforehand- ... so that you don't break in like, "Are you having a stroke?"

Dan Beecher Do you smell toast? What's happening?

Dan McClellan Uh- So how are things, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things are good. Things are good.

Dan McClellan Awesome.

Dan Beecher Uh, the air in Salt Lake City, in the Salt Lake Valley, is not good.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It is January, and January is the time of our temperature inversions. You can look into it if you want to.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, like, I was, "Inverted," um, w- is what you have to get used to saying when you're in Salt Lake City. Basically, the, the, the... And, and that's from Top Gun. But the- Yeah ... uh, the atmospheric layers, uh, basically all the smog goes, "You know what? We wanna be on the ground floor- I wanna stay- ... this time." Yeah ... forever. And, uh, it's, it's really bizarre when you're, like, driving into the valley from high up in the mountains. Mm. Because it's like, "Oh, look, there's a blanket of clouds. Maybe it's foggy. Nope, it's just pollution." Just- And-

Dan Beecher Look, so if you live in a, a-

Dan McClellan And then you descend into it. Yeah.

Dan Beecher So if you live in a place in the world with see-through air- ... uh, say a, say a small prayer for us here- Yes ... in Utah. Yeah. Anywho, uh, coming up today, we're gonna be talking about the Book of Esther, and- Yeah ... uh, and, uh, sort of just going through it. It has some fascinating facts about it that I did not know until we started to look into this, so I am- Yeah ... excited. So let's dive in- All right ... to our chapter and verse. And I suppose this week's chapter and verse is, like, uh, a whole book. It's, it's, it's many chapters and many verses.

Dan McClellan Yeah. 10 chapters- 10- ... specifically ... or nine chapters and a bi-

Dan Beecher and a bit. And a bit. And a, and a-

Dan McClellan With a remainder of three. Um- And an epilogue. Yes. Depending on which version you're looking at, and we'll get to that down the road a piece. But, um, but yeah. Yeah,

Dan Beecher you, you, you, you hinted at that to me before we, just before we went on, and I was like, "Wait, what? What?"

Dan McClellan Yeah. What?

Dan Beecher So, uh- Um- ... so yeah. Um, we- shall we just start with, with what, uh, with the story? The basic story of Esther, or-

Dan McClellan Well, let's intro- let's introduce it, where- Okay ... where it comes from and all that kind of stuff, where it sits in the, in the Biblical canon.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, it's, uh, the setting is, uh, the reign of, uh, a Persian king they call Ahasuerus in the text. This is probably Z- supposed to be Xerxes I. Um, and so the setting is between, like, 485 to 465 BCE, somewhere in there. So we're in the early part of the fifth century BCE. This is post e- exile. We're in Persia, so we're not back in, in Judea- Right ... far away on Judea's plain, uh, where there's apparently a green hill. But, um, we're in Persia, and, uh, it is during the, the reign of Persian Empire. It was probably written a bit after. Well, well, what, it's explicitly written a bit after because the story's like, "So this took place in the days of Xerxes."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which means it's no longer the days of, of Xerxes.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher It, it continually says, like, "This is in the 12th month of this reign," or, "This is," you know, whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And, uh, and it's probably written in the, oh, I don't know, er, maybe late 400s, early 300s BCE, uh, before the whole, uh, we're, you know, subject to a larger empire starts to become a lot more deadly. Mm. Uh, which is what happens in the, in the Greco-Roman period with the Hellenistic, uh, rulers and the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, uh, and all of those folks. Um, and so it's, it has a kind of odd approach to how Jewish folks need to relate to the larger empire, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. But we have a, uh, we have a Hebrew version and a Greek version, and the Greek version is, uh, is the Septuagint version.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So it's a, it's a Greek translation. Uh, and it's signif- not significantly, it's, it's 107 verses longer than the Hebrew. And one of the most famous things about the Book of Esther is what it is lacking, which is what?

Dan Beecher It doesn't have God in it.

Dan McClellan No references whatsoever to God until you get to the Greek version.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan So yeah, they add- Okay ... they add references to God in the Greek version. But in the Hebrew version, there are no references to God. Now, I think most scholars would say that the text is kind of expecting you to find God in the, in the background. The readership is, you know, if you're Jewish, obviously you're like, "Where is God in this? Okay, God is orchestrating things behind the scenes." So- Right ... there's probably a degree of, um, a degree to which the author is kind of intentionally doing this as a rhetorical way of saying, you know, "We, we find God in the events that happen around us and not necessarily in, you know, bam, in your face," kind of ways that other texts in the Bible- represent God's interactions with humanity.

Dan Beecher I mean, I can, what I can see, because having read it just recently, I, I did not see any, even a wink or a nudge nudge towards... Like, this feels like a very straightforward telling of a story.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And, uh, and I know that, like, you know, the, the, the Jewish holiday of Purim is based on this and is all about this. And in their celebrating of Purim, they discuss the, uh, the Jewish people discuss God's hand in all of this. And, and, and, uh, so yes, obviously that is part of the tradition. Mm-hmm. But it is surprising how many opportunities there were to obviously state overtly that God was a part- Yeah ... of this. And, uh, and that's just not there.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The, uh, here, and I'm, and I'm gonna flip the tables a little bit.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So God is not in Esther-

Dan Beecher With, with, with, uh, you know, with, uh, apologies to Monte Mader, whose-

Dan McClellan Oh, that- ...

Dan Beecher whole podcast is flipping tables.

Dan McClellan Yes. Uh, I thought you were gonna say, "With apologies to Jesus." Wow. Uh, but I guess I, I would have to have said overturn tables. But anyway- ... um, God does not appear in Esther. Guess where Esther does not appear? Did you find this out-

Dan Beecher No, no ...

Dan McClellan at all? The Dead Sea Scrolls.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan You have fragments of every single text from the Hebrew Bible, and then some, a- among the Dead Sea Scrolls, except for Megilloth Esther. Uh, it is just, or Megillat Esther, excuse me. Uh, it is just not there. Now, there, there's a possibility that, uh, some scholars would say, "Well, it probably would've been a part of the, uh, a scroll containing other books," so we can't say that they definitely were like, "We don't do Esther here." But, um, but there is no, there, there isn't a hint of Esther anywhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls. And, and one of the funniest things that I've, uh, that I recall related to the, the Book of Esther is w- there was a, there's a website called thetorah.com, which does, uh, a lot of fun public scholarship-type articles. In fact, I've published one with the, thetorah.com. But, uh, I- several years ago, I wanna say 2018 or something like that, they published, uh, an article saying, "Newly deciphered Qumran scroll, scroll revealed to be Megillat Esther." And it created a lot of buzz- Uh-huh ... until people remembered what day it was. Oh,

Dan Beecher no. It was in April.

Dan McClellan 'Cause it was, it was an April Fools' joke. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Oh, my gosh.

Dan McClellan They... Yes. Uh, and then the, like, the, the sub-title is, "The discovery upends decades of research addressing the question of why the Book of Esther is missing from Qumran." Uh, and yeah, there, there's some... It, it's a funny little story. But, uh-

Dan Beecher Well, why, why- ...

Dan McClellan but, yeah, I remember when that happened ...

Dan Beecher do the s- why do scholars think it's missing from Qumran? That seems-

Dan McClellan I, I mean- ...

Dan Beecher really, uh, important.

Dan McClellan Well, the, it's a short book, one.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan And when you think about it, w- uh, if we take the Hebrew Bible as a whole, only about 20% of the actual text of the Hebrew Bible is preserved in the scrolls.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan We, you know, like, the, the Great Isaiah Scroll is one of the only ones where we have every last verse, and that's a pretty, that's, uh, a pretty amazing preservation- Right ... uh, event there. Uh, and so just by the numbers, it ha- it's such a tiny, tiny portion of the entire text of the Hebrew Bible that it's not a huge surprise. Uh, but some, some scholars think maybe it's because it doesn't mention God. Maybe they were like, " Ew, not you," um, 'cause- Interesting ... you don't mention God.

Dan Beecher Or, or, or just didn't include it among the holy texts- ... and just thought it was an interesting story that wasn't, like, that, that, that didn't need to be, or some s- th- preserved in that- Preserved

Dan McClellan as scripture ...

Dan Beecher as scripture. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. That, that's a possibility. There's, there's also the argument that, uh, the, the folks who occupied Qumran were kind of separatists- Mm ... um, and didn't like the, uh, they didn't like the, the temple authority, the folks who were running the temple. They thought they were corrupt and, and illegitimate. Uh, and they also didn't like folks who got along with the powers that, that be, id, or were. Um, and so maybe the f- the fact that it kind of is about cooperation and, and being nice to, uh, imperial, um, overlords, maybe that turned them off, too. There, there are a lot of theories. Some make better sense than others, but, but the reality is that we don't know. We don't even know if, if it is just an accident of preservation.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, but, but yeah, that, I think that is an interesting thing to note, uh, about the Book of Esther. Um, the two main characters in the Book of Esther, Esther and Mordecai, scholars suggest it's likely that their names are actually based on Ishtar and Marduk, the- Oh. Yeah, that they are, um, have filtered down from Acadian probably into Aramaic, uh, and then into Hebrew. So they- So the, uh,

Dan Beecher the, are you saying that the characters are based on that, or just the names are based on that?

Dan McClellan Just the names

Dan Beecher are based on that. Okay.

Dan McClellan 'Cause they're, they're set in Persia. Uh, that would've been around where, um, uh, those deities would've been significant. And so, uh, they just give those c- the characters names that are based on, on that culture.

Dan Beecher Huh.

Dan McClellan Or at least the culture that preexisted- Right ... the Persian Empire leading up to that point.

Dan Beecher Right. So, so possibly what we're say- what, what you're saying, if I can just wrap my head around it, is that, like, whoever the author of Esther was needed Persian-sounding names and just went to the only deities that they could think of- ... the only Persian names that they could think of and were like, "Ah, okay, Ishtar we'll call Esther." Yeah. And- Yeah ... and

Dan McClellan something like that. Something like that. And, um-

Dan Beecher Because, uh, this is not thought to be a- ... historical story.

Dan McClellan No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This, this is not historical.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan This is, uh, these are, these are kind of like court tales.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, and when you read it, that's kind of the flavor it has. Like, it sounds a lot like some of the things from Daniel. It sounds a lot like some of the apocryphal stuff that we've read. There's always somebody who, who overhears-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... some kind of plot-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and then has to foil the, the enemies and all that kind of stuff.

Dan Beecher And it's so overblown.

Dan McClellan There's, there's always a king.

Dan Beecher It's-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... it's such a huge thing. It's never like, it's not like some, like, minor thing like-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... "Oh, those two guys", or-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... it's like all of the everybody.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And, and it's always, it's always some, uh, some middle management dude who wants to, who's plotting to get rid of, of, uh- ... the Jewish people as a whole, and-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and stuff like that. Like, this has, this has that kind of, uh, that flavor. And-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and yeah, these are just non- non-historical stories.

Dan Beecher It's, it's 100% Jafar. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah, it straight up is. Um, and we start with, uh, we start with the king, who is, uh, gets annoyed with his wife. One of them anyway.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan The main wife.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and institutes basically a, a Persia's Got Talent, uh- ... to see who's, who's going to win the hand of the king. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, he gets annoyed with her because I... Yeah, I got hung up on it. I was, I had to look it up because she won't come in in her crown and be sort of paraded around in front of everybody.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, he thinks she's-

Dan McClellan Something like that

Dan Beecher ... he thinks she's real pretty. Uh- And I, I kept reading it going, "Did I miss something? Is she supposed to parade around naked, or why is she refusing this?" But she refuses it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And he hates her for it, and-

Dan McClellan Well, she's, she's like Leslie Gore. And if you don't know who Leslie Gore is- ... what kind of childhood did you have? You don't own me. I'm not just one of your many toys.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and-

Dan Beecher Which is, which is a misnomer when you're talking to the king, I feel like. Uh, when you are the wife of the king-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in a time of-

Dan McClellan But she does say, um, uh, but when we're, "And when we go out, um, don't put me on display."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So yeah, she Leslie Gore's, um, the king.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And he gets, um, he's highly offended by this.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so-

Dan Beecher She's, she is gone, as you say-

Dan McClellan Vashti is, is out. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So it's time, it's time to find a new hot lady.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher Uh, and one of the hottest, or, or perhaps the hottest, happens to be the not daughter of Mordecai.

Dan McClellan Ooh.

Dan Beecher This, oh, such a weird, uh, detail. Mordecai's cousin, who he's raising because her parents both died. Okay. I guess you gotta, you gotta paint a picture. You gotta-

Dan McClellan I, well, yeah, and you gotta have these kinds of things. Like, think of every Disney movie you've ever seen.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan There's always, like Frozen, the two parents go off and die or, or, are supposed to be dead or something like that.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan And the sister's gotta raise the other. So it's, uh, it's, it's just that, that genre. Um-

Dan Beecher S-

Dan McClellan ... and there's no evil stepmother.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So.

Dan Beecher So you, so there's, yeah. So you've got, uh, Mordecai is clearly, though, though her cousin, clearly older-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... uh, she is a young and exceptionally hot, uh, person.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And is, uh, taken to the king. The king like, uh, what he see. And they're off to the races.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Suddenly she's, she is now head- she's now crowned the queen.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Not just, not just one of the, one of the cadre of, of women, but crowned the queen-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... specifically.

Dan McClellan Not just, not just in the harem.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But she is, she's the new queen. And then, uh, chapter two, verse 18, "Then the king gave a great banquet to all of his officials and ministers, Esther's banquet. He also granted a holiday to the provinces and gave gifts with royal liberality." So-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... yeah. This is another feature of a lot of these stories, where, where the king always is kind of an, uh, just always kind of superlatively demeanored.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It's always like-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... grr, or ha, everybody gets gifts. And, uh-

Dan Beecher And he does that constantly throughout this.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher He likes... If he likes someone, he's like, "Hey, ask for something. I'll give you- ... anything up to half of my kingdom." He does that-

Dan McClellan Which, yeah, we've heard before

Dan Beecher ... constantly.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah, exactly.

Dan McClellan And, and just, um, you know, apropos of nothing, Mordecai's just like, "That's cool. Wait a minute, I overhear something."

Dan Beecher Yeah. And over- Oh, and we should, we should say that, um, early on, Mordecai told Esther, "Ix-nay on the U-J." "Uh, do not let him know that you're a Jew because-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... we're not, we're not, uh... I guess we're not that popular. I don't know what it is. Uh-

Dan McClellan Evidently not because when he-

Dan Beecher He does- yeah, he doesn't present, it doesn't present a real, uh, open reason why. Just don't tell, don't talk about that part-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... that, that we're Jewish.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, so there's that.

Dan McClellan And then he's, uh, "When the virgins were being gathered together, Mordecai was sitting at the king's gate." I don't know if there's anything to read into that, but- ... uh, "Esther had not revealed her kindred or her people as Mordecai had charged her, for Esther obeyed Mordecai just as when she was brought up by him. And then, uh, in those days while Mordecai was sitting at the king's gate, Bigtan", or Bigthan, I, I don't know what, um, how we're supposed to pronounce... I, I didn't look at the Hebrew.

Dan Beecher I'm now gonna have to name a character in something Bigtan.

Dan McClellan "And Teresh, two of the king's eunuchs who guarded the threshold of the k- uh, became angry and conspired to kill, uh, Ahasuerus. And so, uh, Mordecai hears this, and he's like, "Oh, well, here's an opportunity to get into the, the good graces." Uh, so, uh, goes to tell Queen Esther about this plot. To, uh, to kill the king

Dan Beecher To kill the king.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, when the plot... The, the, the affair was investigated and found to be so, both men were hung on the pole. Uh, it was recorded in the Book of the Annals in the presence of the king. So-

Dan Beecher Pins in both of those thoughts.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Hanging on the pole and those annals, because that's gonna become, uh... It, yeah, it's so funny because y- as you're reading it, there are these little moments that you're like, "Okay, it was recorded in the book. Why did we have to say that? Okay." "I guess we'll just accept that and move on."

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, and, and this is part of the early, um, historical text. Like you've got in, in Samuel and Kings, you've got these references, "Is this not written in the, in the book of, uh, of, uh, Deuteronomy?"

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And stuff like this. So, um, although they didn't say Deuteronomy.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and, uh, and then we have the introduction of another character, Haman, who is an Agagite, which is- ... uh, supposed-

Dan Beecher Gesundheit.

Dan McClellan Which is, uh, uh, from w- i- basically is a descendant of the, uh, Canaanites.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so o-

Dan Beecher Oh, of course. Of course

Dan McClellan Of course. Yes.

Dan Beecher We have to-

Dan McClellan Uh-

Dan Beecher We have to vilify a Canaanite here, so

Dan McClellan ... that old canard. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna trot that one out. Um, so, so we've got our, you know, ancient feud, uh, is born anew in this, uh, this conflict between, uh, the descendants of the Judahites and the descendants of the Canaanites.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So he gets-

Dan Beecher And th- and this is our Jafar character.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher This guy is, is just a, uh, evil, ambitious to evil levels guy who, uh, who also hates the Jews for no good reason-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... other than-

Dan McClellan And, um-

Dan Beecher ... his dad also hated the Jews.

Dan McClellan And this is another feature of, of how these stories work. The king is always like, "Man, I really like you. You're really cool. I also really like this guy over here who's gonna try to kill all of you guys."

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan "Um, I don't know what to do about this, but I'm just gonna keep... I'm gonna lean into it, where-" "... in fact, we're gonna promote the evil guy."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, and he gets, uh, promoted. There's, uh, I think he gets his own banquet or feast as well. But, uh-

Dan Beecher There's a lot of banqueting in this book.

Dan McClellan Yeah, that's, that's a big part of, uh, of what they did back then, just 'cause everybody had plenty of food, I, I guess, or at least in-

Dan Beecher I guess

Dan McClellan ... in the palace

Dan Beecher Or, or they didn't, and this was a way to show off extravagance or something.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And so they, they plot, and in chapter three, Haman said to King Ahasuerus, "There is a certain people, scattered and separated among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom. Their laws are different from those of every other people, and they do not keep the king's laws, so that it is not appropriate for the king to tolerate them." And the k-

Dan Beecher Well, we should... Sorry, I, one hates to interrupt, but we should also mention-

Dan McClellan You interrupt

Dan Beecher ... that, uh, that, because you skipped a little moment, which is that everybody was bowing and, and showing obeisance to Haman. I-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah

Dan Beecher ... and, and Mordecai didn't.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah, so-

Dan Beecher And Mor- so, yeah. That-

Dan McClellan So yeah, th- that could be the, the source of all this. Haman's like-

Dan Beecher That's the inciting incident

Dan McClellan ... "I didn't, I didn't get a harumph out of that guy."

Dan Beecher That's right. Exactly.

Dan McClellan Yes. Um, and so he, uh, he plots to, uh, decide on a random day, months in the future, by rolling some dice-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... um, that, uh, they're going-

Dan Beecher They cast lots, and that's, and the word for the lots is Purim, or Pur-

Dan McClellan Pur-

Dan Beecher Or s-

Dan McClellan Pur is the, the singular

Dan Beecher ... Pur, right. Right. And so that's, that's where the, the Jewish holiday gets its name.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um, and they're going to, uh, basically slaughter them, commit genocide. We're just, there's, we got this ethnic group that, uh, you know, one of them looked at me sideways, didn't bow, and, uh, and now, uh, we're gonna get rid of them all. And, uh, the king was like, "Cool."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Authorized-

Dan Beecher The king takes- ... no convincing whatsoever.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It is just instantly like, "Oh, you wanna do that? Uh, here's my ring. Eh, go ahead and write letters on my behalf."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "Do whatever, do whatever you gotta do."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That-

Dan McClellan "I trust you implicitly."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... so they, uh, the se- king's secretaries were summoned the 13th day of the first month, and an edict according to all that Haman commanded was written to the king's satraps and to the governors over all the provinces and to the officials of all the peoples, every province and its own script, and every people in its own language. And then you've got the text of that. Uh, and a copy was, uh, was to be proclaimed, and couriers went quickly by order of the king, and the decree was issued in the citadel of Susa, uh, which would be in, um, Anatolia. Um-

Dan Beecher I don't, I don't even know what Anatolia is. You didn't narrow it down for me at all.

Dan McClellan Did I?

Dan Beecher But I just, I, y- half the time-

Dan McClellan Where is it?

Dan Beecher ... when I read these place names, I'm just, I just let them sort of wash over me- ... because I don't know where anything is.

Dan McClellan No, I was wrong. That's not Anatolia. Woof. That was, I was, I was way off. What was I thinking-

Dan Beecher Oh

Dan McClellan ... Anatolia for? No, it's, uh, it's in the, the mountains that are just to the east of Mesopotamia.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Which would be where Iran is, which would be where, where Persia is. Why did I think-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... Anatolia? Somebody's gonna make a video about how I screwed that one up, but don't worry.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan I'm already aware that I screwed that one up. Um, so-

Dan Beecher Yeah, I know. Now they just made the video, and then they came back and saw you correct yourself- ... and went, "No, dang it."

Dan McClellan Post the video anyway. I've, I'm, uh-

Dan Beecher Might as well.

Dan McClellan Yeah, 'cause, uh, I did screw up. Uh, and, and now we got a problem. So, uh, Mordecai happens to learn about all of this, uh, and, you know, obviously-

Dan Beecher Well, because, because the, the letters went out. Everybody knows about it now.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Everybody... Like, this is like, now, oh, no- All of the Jews are, you know, s- six months from now or tw- 12, I think, I think 11 months from now or something, 'cause it goes, it's in the 12th month and we're in the first month or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Anyway, in a few months, we're all going to be murdered.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And so, uh, Mordecai puts on, uh, the sackcloth and the ashes and goes up to the entrance of the king's gate. And, and it seems like Mordecai's just kind of a, of, just kind of a loiterer.

Dan Beecher He lives at the king's gate.

Dan McClellan He's just hanging around in places. Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's his favorite place.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And I, I don't know if anybody knows who he is, uh, apart from Haman, uh, not liking that he didn't bow, but yeah, he just kind of loiters around. Um, and he gets a message to, to Esther that she's gotta figure out a way to do something about this, but it's against the law to approach the, the king if you have not been summoned.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, so, so Esther's taking on, uh, an awful lot of risk. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. She, she makes sure, she says, "Hey, you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this risk, but you go home and fast and have everybody you know fast for three days, and, uh, I w- I'll have all of my people fast for three days, all of my servants and everything."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, she doesn't mention that she's gonna fast, but I assume she does.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. Well-

Dan Beecher And

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... or not. I mean, I'm-

Dan McClellan Three, three days is not, not too long. Um, but yeah, see, and then there's the famous line, uh, "I'll go to the king though it is against the law, and if I perish, I perish." So she's, she's accepting her fate. And s- and something interesting, uh, you have... This is kind of a theme in, in, uh, literature from around this time period. Like you, you, uh, you see it in the Book of Daniel as well, where, uh, they're gonna get, uh, thrown into, uh, I can't remember if it's the, the furnace or the lions' den.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan But he's like, "We, we know that God will save us, but if not, we're still not gonna do the thing."

Dan Beecher So be it.

Dan McClellan And so yeah, it's, it's kind of a, a we have faith, but we're prepared to, uh, to face our end because that's, it's more important to us. Um, a-

Dan Beecher Was this... Sorry, was this written around the same time as Daniel? Is that-

Dan McClellan Um, it's probably, it's probably written around the same time that the court tales parts of the Book of Daniel is written, 'cause you got... 'Cause Daniel is, is, is these little court vignettes.

Dan Beecher Right, right.

Dan McClellan And then you've got the apocalyptic visions and, and things like that, and the apocalyptic visions are probably what's coming from around the time of the, you know, the middle of the 2nd century BCE, around Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Dan Beecher Oh, right, right, right.

Dan McClellan But the court tales probably are coming from a little earlier, if, uh, prob- Some people say, yeah, it could be as early as the late 6th century BCE, maybe Persian period, some of these, um, some of these little stories-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... that are, that have close parallels to what's going on here. So, uh, and then we get to Esther's banquet. So, uh, she comes in to the king, and the king doesn't seem to be aware that there's a law prohibiting approaching him, or maybe he's like, "It's fine. It's fine to approach."

Dan Beecher No, the king, the king knows, but he thinks she's hot, and he- ... accepts her coming in.

Dan McClellan Yeah, that's-

Dan Beecher Because-

Dan McClellan ... pretty privilege right there. Um-

Dan Beecher He, yeah, he does the, he does the, uh, the scepter thing. He's got a golden scepter. She says earlier that, like, if he points at her with his golden scepter-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah

Dan Beecher ... she's good to go.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher And

Dan McClellan that's, that's the signal.

Dan Beecher And, and so he does that. Uh, he, yeah, he, he, he accepts her. She's good to go, so she comes in, taps his scepter. I think that's probably a euphemism, but, uh- And then, and-

Dan McClellan Touch it, I say. Um-

Dan Beecher And then, uh, and then she's good. Sh- And he, and he's just pleased as punch that she's there, and he's just, he just says, "Hey, what do you want? I'll give you anything."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "What do you want?"

Dan McClellan I was-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... just thinking about you. Um- Yeah,

Dan Beecher exactly.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And so, uh, we get this petition, "If I've won the king's favor, and if it pleases the king to grant my petition and fulfill my request, let the king and Haman come tomorrow to the banquet that I will prepare for them, and then I will do as the king has said." So the, the, uh, the trap has been set.

Dan Beecher Well, this is like, this is so funny because she... I, myself, am s- am, am a very direct person.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher I am, like like when I say, when I have a thing I wanna say, I just say it. Uh, Esther is the opposite of that. She, she knows what she wants from the king. He says, "Ask for anything, and I'll give it to you." And she's like, "How about this? Come to dinner. And you, you bring your guy, come to dinner. We're all just gonna have a nice sit-down." Then he comes to dinner with Haman. They both come to dinner. They have the banquet, and again, the king is like, "Okay, anything you want, up to half my kingdom. Whatever you want-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... I'll give it to you." And she goes-

Dan McClellan She's like, "I'm just, I'm just in a giving mood. I'm just-"

Dan Beecher A- and, and her response to that is, "You know what? Come to dinner again."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "Let's do another one."

Dan McClellan We're gonna-

Dan Beecher "Come tomorrow"

Dan McClellan ... gotta string this out, yeah, um, and each time counting on the king being in a giving mood. Um, and-

Dan Beecher Yeah. It ju- it just seems like you're pushing your luck at that point.

Dan McClellan And, and then you've got-

Dan Beecher Ask for the thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then you've got Haman is, like, out strolling around, just like, "I love being evil," and sees-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... Mordecai, and it says that Mordecai didn't tremble or anything before him. And he was like, "That guy's not trembling." He's like, "Oh, I'm gonna g-," uh, and so wants even more to, uh, to, uh, have Mordecai executed. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah. I mean, and this is interesting because what, this is between the two feasts, the two banquets.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, they, and I d- I, I mean, I think it's clear that- m- that Haman doesn't know the relationship between Mordecai and Esther.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher So he, so Haman brings... Is- Haman, on the night, you know, the night between the two things, is just mad at Mordecai and is like, "You know what? We're gonna have him killed."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "We're just gonna do it."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then-

Dan McClellan The guy, he's not, he, he...

Dan Beecher He keeps-

Dan McClellan Could-

Dan Beecher ... going to his friends and being like, "Ar, I hate Mordecai, bah"

Dan McClellan Yeah. I-

Dan Beecher And the- and, and his friends are all mean girls, and they're all like- ... "Well, you know what? You should just have him killed. I think you really should."

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. I was, I was gonna compare it to, uh, to current events, uh, and be like, he's, uh, he's just so angry that somebody is not respecting his authority-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, with the, the deference that he thinks his authority merits.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and yeah, the, what happens in the middle is, is kind of a pivot point for the story, 'cause you can actually see you've got the King of Persia's greatness, you've got Haman elevated over and against Mordecai elevated. You've got a decree to, um, to kill all the Jewish folks, and then you've got a decree that allows them to defend themselves. And so it- it's kind of, um, two, um, opposite ends of the story converging on the center piece, um, which is chapter six, which is where the king honors Mordecai. Um, he couldn't sleep, and he wakes up and, and he's just like, "Hey, bring me that book- ... about all the cool stuff that happened. Um, read me a, read me a story from, uh, you know, from last month," or whatever.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher Just pick a random anything. Maybe it involves a guy named Mordecai. I don't know.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And he recalls, "Oh yeah, Mordecai." And this is, like, the, uh, the most well-disposed king of all time. He's just like, "You're... Hey, what do you want? Can I make you happy? Let me..."

Dan Beecher I mean, well, he basically, I mean, he says, "Hey, did we give that guy anything?" "That guy that saved my life. You remember when he saved my life-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... and he, he told us-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... about that plot against me? Did we ever give him anything or not?"

Dan McClellan I, I thought we wrote that down to do something about that.

Dan Beecher So then they're like, "Okay."

Dan McClellan It's a, it's a good thing that I was, uh, that I woke up and decided to, to read some stuff, huh?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Have some stuff read to me.

Dan Beecher What should I give him? I can't decide what to give him. Who's out in the hall? Is there anybody out in the hall that can just- ... decide what to give Mordecai? And Haman happens to be out there, and so they bring Haman in, and he says, "What should I give to someone who's deserving of me?" And Mordecai... And it literally, I love that there's a moment where it literally says his inner dialogue, his inner monologue. Or not Mordecai, sorry, Haman. Haman. It has Haman's inner monologue. He says, he thinks to himself, "Oh, he must be talking about me, so I will say what I think I should get."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then he says, you know, "Bring out all of the best clothes that you used to wear, and a horse with a crown on it- ... and a mermaid- ... and, uh, you know, a, a platinum or an Amex black card or something, and give all of that to this supposed guy."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And the king's like, "Great, why don't you take all those things and give it to Mordecai?" Which is a, a lovely bit of, uh, humiliation-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... for him.

Dan McClellan You know, that guy who kind of loiters around the- ... uh, the palace.

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah, the, the guy... You'll find him out in front of, out, out of the gate. That's all he does these days.

Dan McClellan Yeah. You can't miss him. If, if, if you hear the bees, you've gone too far.

Dan Beecher I don't know what that means, but okay.

Dan McClellan Oh, I, I... It, it's from The, The Office, uh, where Dwight's giving directions to get to, like, a farm-

Dan Beecher Oh, okay

Dan McClellan ... or something, and he's like, "Turn left when you hear the bees."

Dan Beecher Okay. So, uh, so Haman not only doesn't get to kill Mordecai, but he has to present him with-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, with clothes, which, uh, and-

Dan McClellan It's all, it's all reversal of fortune.

Dan Beecher Right, right, right.

Dan McClellan He thinks he's getting this, but actually he's getting this. He plans this, but actually he gets, uh, hoisted by his own petard-

Dan Beecher That's-

Dan McClellan ... uh, provided petard means, uh, impaling stake. But, um-

Dan Beecher Uh, right. And, and, and it is true, because he had built a 50-cubit-tall pole, uh, that he was going to, to kill Mordecai on. But then, uh-

Dan McClellan Do, do we have... Did you look up how long 50 cubits is?

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan 75 feet.

Dan Beecher Yeah. It's very tall.

Dan McClellan Depend- depending on the type of cubit. Um, but yeah, that's a... Like, what, this is a grotesque villain who's just like- I just wanna see him sliding down a 75-foot-tall pole because-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... he's been, uh, he's been impaled.

Dan Beecher This is Joffrey Baratheon levels of evil.

Dan McClellan Yeah, this is Vlad the Impaler levels-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... of, of, uh, of sickness. Um-

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, so then the next night, uh, Esther, or the next day, Esther has her second feast, her second banquet.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Uh, and Haman and the king are there, and that's when she pulls the trigger and says, "Hey-

Dan McClellan Springs it on him, yeah

Dan Beecher ... this guy hates my people. Guess what? P.S. I'm a, I'm a Jew. Uh, this guy hates all of us and wants us all dead. I prefer not, if you please."

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher King, who has, uh, who has again, once again offered her everything up to half his kingdom.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, and to-

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher And apparently that is totally within the bounds of up to half my kingdom- ... uh, because the king has zero problem- ... just murdering the crap out of this guy.

Dan McClellan And yeah, he, and, uh, but he asks, "Who is this? Who did this?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and she, uh, she levels the finger at Haman, this wicked Haman.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then Haman was terrified, "And the king rose from the feast in wrath and went into the palace garden. But Haman stayed to beg his life from Queen Esther, for he saw that the king had determined to destroy him." And then, uh, and, and he's basically, he seems to have just gone off to, uh, I don't know, just, uh, kind of vent for a while, need to blow off some steam.

Dan Beecher He, he went to his mad room-

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher ... and, uh, just sat there stewing for a little bit.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Punched some pillows, broke some- ... um, some coffee cups. "When he returned from the palace garden to the banquet hall, Haman had thrown himself on the couch where Esther was reclining. And the king said, 'Will he even violate the queen in my presence, in my own house?'" Um, so timing was bad-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, for Haming- Haman. "And as the words left the mouth of the king, they covered Haman's face. Then Harbona, one of the eunuchs in attendance on the king, said, 'Look, the very pole that Haman has prepared for Mordecai, whose word saved the king, stands at Haman's house, 50 cubits high.' And the king said, 'Hang him on that.' So they hung Haman on the pole that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then the anger of the king abated." So again, reversal of fortune.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, yeah. Hmm.

Dan Beecher And then, uh, the king-

Dan McClellan But that doesn't solve the problem-

Dan Beecher Well, no, no

Dan McClellan ... because there was legislation that, uh, that had been written and passed and signed off on.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan That, uh... And,

Dan Beecher and- And, and couriers had sent it to all of the hundreds, ruh-ruh-ruh, however many, uh, provinces in the land

Dan McClellan Satraps and everything, yes. Um, and so, but while he exercises all power, he does not exercise all power, uh, because he cannot undo a decree of the king.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, which is kind of silly, but, um, what i- isn't that, isn't that what's in, uh, yeah, in Aladdin? Uh, at the end he's like, "Well, am I the sultan or am I the sultan?" Or something like that. And, and then decrees that from now on the princess can marry-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... whoever she wants. So he should logically have that authority. Um, but they-

Dan Beecher By, by no less a standard than Disney's Aladdin. So, yeah, I mean, honestly.

Dan McClellan Yes. As, as long as that is historical. Um, but, uh, so they, they decide we- we're gonna write up a, a contra, uh, uh, thing. Order. Order, yes.

Dan Beecher Law.