Paul's Spiritual Gifts Are Not a Tier List

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same, because this is our gift, right, Dan?

Dan Beecher It is. Uh, I don- I don't know whence it came.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Who knows from what-

Dan McClellan Thank you ...

Dan Beecher ethereal source, uh, we received.

Dan McClellan Thank you for not saying from whence. Um, we, we are staunch anti-prescriptivists here, but it still grates on me.

Dan Beecher There, there are certain things which, though, though we are not going to hound anyone about it, if you say expresso, I'm gonna be- ... I'm not gonna mention it, but it's gonna hurt my heart a little bit. That's, it's fine. Anyway, uh, yeah, we're, we're talking about some, uh, some gifts of the spirit coming up on today's show. Yeah. And that is an exciting thing. That was, uh, a, a listener sent that suggestion in, and they did it at just the right time, 'cause I was like, "I wonder- ... what we're gonna talk about this week." And that one just popped up, and I was like, "Okay, we'll do it." So sometimes it's just about timing, everybody. Yeah. A lot of listeners send in a lot of ideas, and I'm like, "That's a great idea," and then I don't think of it in the moment. So, sorry. Keep sending them. I will, we'll, we'll, somebody'll try to remember.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But for now, we're, we're, we're gonna be, uh, doing a What's That? So let's just dive in with What's That? All right, so humina, shamina, scabbada-doo, uh, it is the gifts of the spirit- Yes ... uh, that, that, that we're, that is the that of What's That? Uh, so, so let's, let's get into it. I, I believe we're, we're, the, the most obvious, uh, pla- start- starting point is I Corinthians chapter 12.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Is that correct?

Dan McClellan That is correct. Chapter 12 through 14 is a, is a long discourse about the gifts of the spirit. But there, we actually have a few different places in the New Testament where we rattle off different, uh, degrees of gifts of the spirit. We also have Romans 12. We have a few verses in there. Ephesians 4, not Paul, most likely, somebody else, and we'll get to how the, the gifts are slightly different there. Okay. I Peter 4, and then to the degree that we wanna use the, the tongues thing as a gift of the spirit, um, discussion, then, then, uh, Acts chapter 2 and 7.

Dan Beecher We should probably do our, uh, do a whole thing on the gift of tongues if we haven't already, 'cause that just- Yeah ... seems like it's a... But we do n- but we, but it's part of this whole, uh, thing, so yeah, I think we, I think we need to include it. Um, the gifts a- of the spirit that are listed, uh, according to I Corinthians, and I Corinthians is Paul, yes?

Dan McClellan Yes, yes. Okay. I Corinthians is definitely Paul.

Dan Beecher Okay, so, uh, so basically what he's doing is he's, he's writing to the people of Corinth.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And he is saying, uh, "There's, there's all these cool things that come with..." It, it's basically like Patreon, uh, bonuses- ... that you get whe- when you sign up to be a Christian, um, uh, or rather when you, when you get, uh, when the, when the spirit, uh, favors you. Uh, l- maybe we should just, it, I guess it seemed obvious to me, but suddenly it might not be obvious. The spirit, what, what are we talking about? Is that the Holy Ghost? Is that-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, yeah, it's supposed to be. But, um, the gifts of the spirit, well, in, in I Corinthians 12:1, he says, uh, peri ton pneumatikon, which, which doesn't actually include the word gifts. He just says, "Now concerning the spirituals or the spiritual things, that which is spiritual." And he goes off, and, and it's actually interesting if you read it in context and you read it carefully, there's kind of a, an argument that Paul is developing, uh, which is not, "Look how cool the gifts are." It's actually, "Shut up about all of this and, and get along." Because what he's, what he's trying to say is, is kind of there, there's a lot of contention. There's a lot of, um, it seems like there's, there's a lot of tension in the church, and what he's basically saying is, "Hey, we all have different things that we bring to the table."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And these are the things he's, he's talking about as the gifts of the spirit. And there's diversity, but diversity does not imply hierarchy. So he's, so he's kind of taking a, a separate but equal approach to, um, to these different spiritual gifts. But then he goes on to say that this is not competition. This is not a hierarchy. You're all different parts of the same body. Mm. And you all have your different functions, so quit bickering, because the, the head cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," uh, or words to that effect. Right. I don't remember exactly what, what he says, but, um, he's, he's basically making the case that, hey, we need everyone with their various gifts to contribute to the greater good of the congregation, of the community, of the people. And so it's not, "Look how cool I am." It's, "What do I bring to the table? How can I make things better? How can I benefit the people who lack my gift?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, so he's, he's actually kind of trying to calm some unrest, and the gifts of the spirit are, are how he goes about getting people to stop competing, to stop, uh, glaring down their snouts at- ... the people who have- Uh, gifts, other gifts who are not-

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan ... blessed with the gifts that they have. So it's kind of all about edification. It's all about order.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, um, so it's in-

Dan Beecher I thought that one of the things that I thought was interesting is I just, just that part, the part that you're talking about-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... when I have thought of the gifts of the Spirit, the image in my mind, and I don't know where this came from, whether this came from just sort of, like, being in church or hearing people talk about it or whatever. It certainly didn't come from reading the Bible, 'cause I didn't do a lot of that. But the image that I always had was there was this lifts, list of gifts of the Spirit, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, um, miracles, you know-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... powerful deeds, prophecy. And my sense was that if you just sort of advanced your spirituality far enough, it was like, uh, you know, a game of D&D. You know, you got- you level up, and then you, you get another gift. And, like, the more you level up, the more of these gifts you sort of accrue to yourself.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And reading, uh, Corinthians, it's like, it's not that at all. It's like, look, this guy has wisdom, and that person has knowledge, and this person has that, and you don't get all of them. Like, not every-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... not, this is, this isn't that. It's not like everyone can have access to all of these things-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... if they are spiritual enough. That's not-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... the idea here at all.

Dan McClellan It's a little more like Encanto. It's like-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... you, you get to, you open the magic door, and bam-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... you have super strength.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Or you can hear everything, or, um, and, and it's all contributing to the betterment of, of the group. And you-

Dan Beecher Well, and it's-

Dan McClellan ... you rattled off most of the things that are named in, in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10, but also various kinds of tongues-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... and interpretation of tongues. My favorite, though, is, uh, it's actually not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. We actually gotta go back to, back to 1 Corinthians 7 for this thing that is referred to as a gift.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And it's in verse seven. Uh, and here's where Paul is talking about celibacy.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan And he says, "I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, w- one having one kind and another a different kind."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So I, I think we gotta add, we gotta add the discipline to be celibate-

Dan Beecher The discipline to be-

Dan McClellan ... as one of the gifts

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher As one of-

Dan McClellan And he uses, I'm pretty sure-

Dan Beecher So now-

Dan McClellan ... he uses charisma, charisma, yeah. Is that the word there? Uh, shoo-boo-doo-doo-boo. Um, ba-da-da-da-da. Yeah, charisma. He, he uses the exact same word that he uses later on-

Dan Beecher Is it-

Dan McClellan ... a gift.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher So here's, here's my question, though. Could that not be interpreted as, "Look, I think everybo- I wish everybody was like me, but some dude's got the gift, and, uh, they're gonna be- ... having, getting out the, the, they just are- ... too good for the ladies. They got the charisma." And, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... and so their gift is, uh, is making other people, is, is sexiness.

Dan McClellan Well, and you know-

Dan Beecher The gift, the, the spiritual gift of sexiness.

Dan McClellan If you've seen Magic Mike, uh- ... I think, is it the second one? Where one of the guys is too gifted-

Dan Beecher Oh, I see

Dan McClellan ... to the degree that it's a problem.

Dan Beecher Okay. All right.

Dan McClellan And the, uh He has to find the right person who can-

Dan Beecher Uh-huh

Dan McClellan ... who can accommodate his giftiness. Um-

Dan Beecher I'm surprised at your familiarity with the Ma- Magic Mike, uh, franchise. Uh-

Dan McClellan I, I, I, I have more knowledge of, uh, of-

Dan Beecher Of pop culture

Dan McClellan ... things than, yes, than, uh, what-

Dan Beecher It's not just The Avengers? All right.

Dan McClellan I have, I have approximate knowledge of many things.

Dan Beecher Yes, indeed.

Dan McClellan Which itself is, uh, is, is me making reference to another piece of pop culture. But, um- But, uh, yeah, so I, I don't think Paul's aimed at that idea-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... of, of-

Dan Beecher No, no

Dan McClellan ... gifthood.

Dan Beecher I like, I like the idea of, of celibacy being a gift of-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... of the Spirit.

Dan McClellan And that, and that's what he's saying. Not everybody can hack it-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... because not everyone is blessed with my whateverness.

Dan Beecher With being, with being an, being ace. Uh- Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and you know, there, there's a, there's an argument to make that, that maybe that's what Paul was, was really on. That's what, that's, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... that was his bag.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, or, or maybe he just, I don't know, had something that didn't, he couldn't really find a place for and was like- ... "I guess I'm just not gonna do anything." But, um, so, so in, in Corinthians, we have references to these gifts in a couple of different places. We have this-

Dan Beecher Yeah, that's really interesting.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So it, it's... But when you, you talked about, yeah, it's like there's a, a catalog of gifts, you know, you sell enough chocolate bars to your neighbors or force your parents to write- ... a check for enough chocolate bars, and you get a little catalog, and you get to pick out your, your gift. No-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... it's not like that at all. But also, when we look at the difference, the catalogings of the gifts, they are different.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Um, because in, in addition to just talking about these skills and abilities, uh, Paul also makes reference to, in 1 Corinthians, uh, 12:28, he makes reference to different, uh... I don't know that we can talk about them as offices yet.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan I think it's really in Ephesians that they're offices, but in 12, uh, 28, he talks about, um, God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. So, uh, the, I think there's an awful lot of overlap between your gift and your role.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so I, I think the, the roles are really the manifestation of the gift in, in some ways.

Dan Beecher Yeah, he doesn't seem to be distinguishing those two categories at all. Uh-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... it just seems to be that, like, some people, their gift of the Spirit is apostolic. And others is prophetic, and some is, you know, others it's teaching, and others it's power. And so, uh, yeah, that, I, I mean, that makes, that makes a certain amount of sense. Like, the, the, what a... Like, an apostle, that is a, a thing to do.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, and, and, and, uh, you know, prophesying is a thing that you do. It's not, it's not so much, uh, you know, I guess it is a title. But he's, but here, I think it, it's an interesting way to look at it as a, a, as just a, a, a proclivity.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Or-

Dan McClellan And, and people talk about the church during Paul's day as being more Spirit-led.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Which is kind of like this person has shown up, and they've joined us, and they are really good at whatever. And so, bam, that is now their role. That's what they do. And, and so the Spirit kind of, uh, generates their role within the community because everybody can see that that's what they have been, uh, spiritually gifted with. So it's not yet, "Oh, well, you are now an overseer. If you wanna be an overseer, by the way, here are all the qualifications that you have to meet," which is what we get in I Timothy and what we get in Titus.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan The pastoral epistles that are probably coming from the end of the first or the beginning of the second century CE, where it's not as, as much a Spirit-led thing, where it's more of an institution-

Dan Beecher Yeah, so, so the-

Dan McClellan ... with a set of roles

Dan Beecher ... so things have started to sort of solidify into an organizational structure.

Dan McClellan Yeah, where, where it's not so much I show up, I have a special ability, and they say, "Great, we could use you-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... over here."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Now it's-

Dan Beecher I, I'm a prophet

Dan McClellan ... here are the roles.

Dan Beecher And everybody's like, "Oh, cool, you're a prophet. Well, prophesy on our behalf."

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Now it's like, "We're gonna assign, you're the, you're the prophet, and you're the apostle, and you're the this and that."

Dan McClellan And, and it's kind of like here are the roles. Here are the, the, um, prereqs for each role.

Dan Beecher Right, right.

Dan McClellan Here are the requirements, and you pick one.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So i- it's, it's less Spirit-led when we get to the pastoral epistles, I think. It seems to me.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan And, uh, when we go to Romans 12, we have some more references, uh, where Paul uses that word charisma. "We have gifts that differ according to the grace given us: prophecy in proportion to faith, ministry in ministering, the teacher in teaching, the encourager in encouragement." That would be a great calling-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in the, the LDS Church. Like-

Dan Beecher Well, in,

Dan McClellan uh- We're calling you to be the encourager

Dan Beecher ... in all the churches. The churches-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... need to start getting encouragers going.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. Um, the, we need glazers in the, in the Church. Um, the, don't, don't s- research that if you don't know what that means. The giver in sincerity, the leader in diligence, the compassionate in cheerfulness. So the, we're still in the kind of Spirit-led-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, realm. Which, which I think is, uh, works when you're still a fledgling movement.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, I think once you have tax-exempt status, and once you have- ... uh, you know, lawyers that you've gotta work with-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... you know, it becomes, uh, things, it's a l- lot harder to work in, in that, with that kind of flexibility.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, what is the, the training system, uh- ... that I used to have to, to go through? Oh, shoot, I can't remember what it was. But it had some silly name, uh, that, that was supposed to be how you, you, you know, respond flexibly to stuff. Oh, and- ... you can tell the training went really well. But, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah. You, you definitely-

Dan McClellan Well, it was-

Dan Beecher You, you, you definitely paid a lot of attention and, and-

Dan McClellan It, it was 10 years ago- ... um, in, when I got certified in that. Uh, so yeah, we, and then, you know, Paul goes on, "Let love be genuine. Hate what is evil. Hold fast to what is good. Love one another with mutual affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not, do not lag in zeal. Be ardent in spirit. Serve the Lord." Like, this is a, this is a, a lot more, as, as much as people hate the idea of the, uh, of the kumbaya Jesus- Kind of a kumbaya Paul to, in, in some ways. Right, yeah. Um, it's, it's very communal. It's, it's not, uh, you know, it's, it's not your tax-exempt or, uh, institution.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, yeah, and then tongues, that's the one that a lot of people wanna, wanna... Glossolalia is, is a big deal for some reason these days. Um-

Dan Beecher Well, and it's so interesting because, a- and again, I, I do wanna save this as a, a... I think, I think speaking in tongues should be its own segment, so we'll-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... probably do that coming up pretty soon here. But yeah, it, it seems to me that the original idea of speaking in tongues or being able to hear tongues is understanding, uh, which is kind of the opposite of what t- people who speak in tongues now-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... do.

Dan McClellan Yeah, there's kind of a distinction, xenoglossia and glossolalia. And xenoglossia seems to be, is definitely what's going on in Acts 2.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And this is the idea, not, not that you are somehow having your faculties taken over by, by some agents so that you're speaking, uh, some kind of heavenly language, which a lot of former, uh, Pentecostals and Evangelicals have said, "Yeah, I was just making stuff up."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, uh, you know, just, um, but xenoglossia would be you're understanding someone else who does not speak your language.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And you have the ability to engage in, um, and speak the, the same language. And that was, you know, as a, as a Latter-day Saint who served, uh, a foreign, uh, proselytizing mission when I first joined the, the LDS Church, well, a year after I joined the Church, we understood the gift of tongues to be a particular kind of facility with picking up languages.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan So, so we, you know, we were not into the whole, um, you know- gibberish babbling idea of, of the gift of tongues. We were of the, the mindset that this is, you are blessed to be able to learn a foreign language much more quickly, and in situations where it is needful for you to be able to communicate s- something in a language that you may not understand that well-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... you are blessed with the ability to do something.

Dan Beecher And I've definitely heard, uh, of missionaries, Mormon missionaries, uh, talking at the Missionary Training Center, talking about, you know, praying so that they can receive that gift better-

Dan McClellan The gift of tongues. Yeah

Dan Beecher ... because, you know, they're all, they're all terrified. They're, they're getting two weeks of language training or whatever it is- ... or a month or something before they just get thrown to the wolves in some other-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in some foreign country. So they are, they're, they're all, uh, yeah, they're all praying and, and actually, you know, believing that they will, that, that, that it's very possible that they could really, that they could be blessed, uh, with that. But, uh, I don't know if you know this, there is history in the LDS Church of people speaking in tongues-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in the ear- in the early part of the church-

Dan McClellan Uh-huh

Dan Beecher ... which I think is an in- uh, in the, in the sense of like, you know, standing up in the middle of a church service and saying a bunch of syllables that sound like gibberish to everybody else.

Dan McClellan Well, you know what? The, the early days of the church were, were much more the Paul to today's- ... pastoral epistles.

Dan Beecher Yes, indeed.

Dan McClellan So, so it was not, uh, things had not become calcified into- ... the global institution and the corporation soul that-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... that it now is today. So, so that is not at all, um, should not be at all shocking to anyone who, uh, who has a good grasp on, on those things.

Dan Beecher Indeed.

Dan McClellan But but yeah, so, so gifts of the Spirit are, are, are really the, the skills, the abilities, the facilities that everybody brings to the table to help, uh, you know, the body of Christ to grow. And we d- we didn't even get to Ephesians four.

Dan Beecher It's almost like Voltron.

Dan McClellan Let me get to them.

Dan Beecher All of the, all of those, all of the-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... different things.

Dan McClellan It's Captain Planet, it's Voltron- ... it's, it's all of them, uh, put, put together. And, and I think the... And Ephesians, and this is one of the disputed Pauline epistles. I happen to think that this was probably not written by Paul. But Ephesians 4:11, "He himself granted that some are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers." And then the point, the reason for all of this, "To equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, by their craftiness and deceitful scheming. But speaking the truth in love, we must grow in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, each part is working properly, promotes the body's growth and building itself up in love." So what are the gifts of the Spirit? The gifts of the Spirit are the things that facilitate growth in the body of Christ so that it can become perfected, so that all, it can be fit together perfectly, and all the joints and ligaments and the sinews can all, uh, function, um, optimally. And that way-

Dan Beecher Love a good sinew.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Uh- ... when the, when the mutton is nice and lean. Um, the, yeah, the ... So, so I think that's the message that at least Paul was trying to get across in-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, in talking about the gifts of the Spirit, is that, hey, this is not so you can boast about having this cool gift. Uh, even if it's the Magic Mike kind of gift- ... uh, you're, you're not supposed to be boasting about that kind of thing. It is so you can contribute, and you can help other people, and you can make a difference in their lives. And I-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and I think that's, that's a wonderful message. And I think if, if more people who are, who talk about the gifts of the Spirit were concerned for trying to bring communities together and trying to fill needs where they have capacities to do so, uh, I think this could be a, a much better place to live.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a lovely sentiment. I, you know-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... if, if, rather than... Yeah. B- because we so often see someone who has, who is gifted and talented in a certain way, and we want to raise that person up and say, "Oh, look at this person who i- you know, who's, who's got this, um, you know, this gift. Let's make them in charge of us," or, "Let's make that, you know, let's, let's, let's put them on a pedestal in some way," rather than saying, "Cool gift. What are you doing with it?"

Dan McClellan Yeah. Get to work.

Dan Beecher What, what... Yeah. You got, you got, you, you've got good to do in the world.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Awesome.

Dan McClellan There was... Yeah. Awesome indeed.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, we'll leave it at that. Uh, I'll remind our, uh, everyone who, uh, especially those of, of you who are experiencing us videographically on the YouTubes, uh, that they can, you can join, uh, as, uh, you can hit the join button and become a member of the Tribe of Dan. Uh, you'll get access to, uh, uh, all of our videos will, will come a day early. You'll get, uh, live streams from Dan and I, uh, the first one being on the 27th of this here September, uh, and more going forward, uh, et cetera. And there's a bunch of other cool stuff. Or you can become a patron over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma. It's very much, uh... Th- these are the ways that we, uh, keep this show going, and so that is, we appreciate it so much. Over there, you can get exclusive, uh, content also. Uh, we do, we do, uh, patrons-only content every week. So head on over there and sign up, uh, for everything. Sign up for all the things. We sure appreciate it when, when people do that. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing. Thanks to Sam Holden for being our right-hand fella, and thanks to all y'all for tuning in. We'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.