Just the Tip?

Dan Beecher You never know when God's going to pop up and decide to kill you.

Dan McClellan That reframes a little bit the popular Latter-day Saint painting of Jesus in the middle of the night knocking on the door.

Dan Beecher "Hey, are all of your children's penises intact? Because I'm not down with that."

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher And I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things are great. In our timeline, you and I just got back from the first leg of our tour.

Dan McClellan Yes, our multiverse.

Dan Beecher That's right. For our listeners, that's still a week or two ago.

Dan McClellan I don't know.

Dan Beecher I don't know when this thing comes out.

Dan McClellan But- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher it was an amazing time. We had such a good time. We met so many of our listeners and viewers, and that was fantastic.

Dan McClellan So- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher I'm still riding the high, baby.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and we're about to head out again on the 17th.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Will this be out by the 17th?

Dan Beecher Probably.

Dan McClellan I don't know.

Dan Beecher Probably.

Dan McClellan I don't know.

Dan Beecher Who knows?

Dan McClellan Who knows? When- I don't know when this stuff happens ...

Dan Beecher maybe when you're listening to this, we're in Dallas, or we're in Atlanta or something.

Dan McClellan Who knows?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Who knows?

Dan Beecher But yeah, that was a lot of fun. And I'm excited about today's show. I think it's going to be fun.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We are tackling two spiky issues.

Dan McClellan Sensitive issues.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Interesting stuff. So, the first thing we're going to do, it's going to be our Who Dat?

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And we're going to talk about Jephthah, which is as fun to say as it is to talk about. And an interesting decision that he made and what followed thereafter.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And then we are going to talk about something that keeps coming up in the Bible and keeps confusing me and making me feel weird.

Dan McClellan So- ...

Dan Beecher that's going to be circumcision.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher And that'll be in the second half of the show. If you're squeamish, you can listen to that one on double speed or something like that.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Get through quicker.

Dan Beecher Whatever you need to do. But let's dive in with Who Dat? And this Who Dat? comes to us from Judges chapter 11- Mm-hmm. Which is where we're going to start ... which is where we begin our journey.

Dan McClellan And- ...

Dan Beecher I don't have any background for this. The whole thing of Judges as a book is just that it's kind of like a series of leaders of- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan the Israelites. A good way to think about it is, if you imagine film, how you have frames, and then you've got a framework around the frames- Mm ... which is used to feed the film and everything like that. It's kind of like that. We have these little narratives about these judges who are ruling or judging within certain parts of ancient Israel and Judah, and in certain time periods, and there's kind of this narrative superstructure that is connecting them all together that is a later editorial product.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan But somebody basically was like, "We're going to tell all these stories about the judges." And the idea is there was no king in the land, everybody just kind of did their own thing, and then God would occasionally inspire, or guide, or possess one of these judges, and they would then go on basically a killing spree.

Dan Beecher But- Sure. Like you do ...

Dan McClellan in some way, they are serving the interests of the tribes.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And there's a lot of conflict between the tribes as well in this period. And the judges are not phenomenal models of good behavior. Some of them are held up as, "Here's what not to do." But they end up serving their purpose. They end up helping Israel in some way. Samson is a good example of that. He's a tragic tale of a man and his jawbone of an ass- Yeah ... who ends up taking out himself, along with all the Philistines, so.

Dan Beecher He's kind of a disaster, Samson is.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And Jephthah is going to turn out to be disastrous, kind of?

Dan Beecher I guess? Who knows- I mean, I guess ...

Dan McClellan in another way?

Dan Beecher I'll say this for the guy, he's a man of his word.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And as we're going to see, whoever's telling this story, they're not really passing judgment on Jephthah.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan We don't get a sense, one way or another, that the author is good, bad, or indifferent in terms of what's going on here. It's just kind of- Although- ... "Here's the story" ...

Dan Beecher it feels like in the Bible, if no judgment is passed, it feels like it's kind of the thumbs up. It kind of gets the okay. Because usually, if it's a really bad person- Mm-hmm ... you're going to hear phrases like, "And they were wicked," and, "They were bad unto the Lord," or whatever the- Well, and we're going to talk about one reason that God doesn't seem to be passing judgment on what's going on- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan here as well.

Dan Beecher Okay. So, but to start, we're- So let's get to the story.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I love that it starts that the very first thing we learn about him was that he was the son of a prostitute.

Dan McClellan Yes. He was a Gileadite, and Gilead was his father. And Jephthah, by the way, this comes from, in Hebrew, it's Yiphtach, which comes from the verbal root patach, which is also the name of a vowel in Hebrew, but it means to open. And so, it's probably a jussive, may he open. Probably God, and the idea is probably the womb. So, this is making childbirth possible. So it's probably a name that was given to somebody where they're like, "Hey, my son, let's name him God Has Opened or May God Open," or something like that.

Dan Beecher That is a crazy thing to name a child.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher He- I don't understand. I understood the words that you just said. I don't understand why that would be a thing that you would then go, "Okay, let's name a child that." Well- But okay. Let's not get hung up ...

Dan McClellan names are weird.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Names are weird.

Dan Beecher Absolutely.

Dan McClellan So yeah, he's the illegitimate son of Gilead, and Gilead's wife has other sons.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so, it's like he's the black sheep of the family because he was from that lady that dad used to bring over every now and then.

Dan Beecher He's the Jon Snow of- He's the Ramsay Bolton of the family.

Dan McClellan So he runs off and lives in the land of Tov, which means good in Hebrew.

Dan Beecher But he- But it's transliterated Tob in the NRSVUE.

Dan McClellan Tob.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Well, because Tov is spelled tet, vav, beit.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And a beit can be pronounced as a /b/ or a /v/.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so, here it's Tov. And I have a friend named Emmanuel Tov.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan It's not an uncommon last name. But he amasses friends who are outcasts.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan And so basically, he forms a gang.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And they go about raiding. This is their Friday night activity is- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher to go- Which is the part of the story that you really want to hear, but we don't focus much on that.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And this is very little different from the story of David.

Dan Beecher Oh, right.

Dan McClellan Same kind of thing.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan When David's off, Dave, he gets all these mercenaries around him, and they go about a raiding as well.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then the Ammonites come, and they make war against Israel, as one does.

Dan Beecher Yeah, sure.

Dan McClellan By the way, I had a comment. You know how I talk about things being my won't?

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan I was told in no uncertain terms that I'm pronouncing that incorrectly, and that it is actually pronounced want.

Dan Beecher So- Not when you pronounce it.

Dan McClellan I know. I've heard won't- Won't is a perfectly standard pronunciation.

Dan Beecher Yeah. And also, a good way to differentiate it from want, which is from W-A-N-T, which is a totally different word.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So why not pronounce them differently?

Dan McClellan Yeah. But anyway, the elders of Gilead are like, "Hey, these guys are sticking it to us. Jephthah, you and your little ragtag group of undesirables, you can fight. Why don't you come and you lead us against the Ammonites so we can..." Whenever I hear Ammonites, I think of the fossil.

Dan Beecher And so- Oh.

Dan McClellan Okay. Yeah, so. And he's basically like, "Meh, you guys ran me away from home and treated me poorly."

Dan Beecher "What are you going to give me? Let me ask you something. You want me to lead you here. When we come back, do I lead you then?

Dan McClellan Question mark?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And he says, "Look, I'll come back. I'll fight with the Ammonites. If God delivers them into my hands, yeah, I'll lead you guys."

Dan Beecher "I'm the boss then."

Dan McClellan Yeah. "If we do this, then I'm in charge."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And the elders of Gilead say, "Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Dan Beecher Absolutely." That would be fine.

Dan McClellan Because they are desperate.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And so he becomes the commander. He sends messengers to the king of the Ammonites, and is basically like, "Come and get it."

Dan Beecher And they- There is some back and forth about who has the right to the property- Yeah ... that is in dispute, and that's not very interesting.

Dan McClellan And this is... Actually, it is interesting.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan I will tell you exactly why.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because in verse 17, there's a back and forth, and Jephthah's messengers go to the king of Edom and say, "Let us pass through your land." But the king of Edom's like, "Eh, don't think so." So they go to the king of Moab, but he wouldn't, so they blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Where is the part I want to talk about? Oh, there's a lot of messengers going back and forth.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Okay. There it is. In verse 24, or verse 23, "Adonai, the God of Israel, has conquered the Amorites for the benefit of his people, Israel. Do you intend to take their place?" Basically saying, "You want to get conquered, too?" And then they are talking to these other messengers, and they say, "Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "And should we not be the ones to possess everything that Adonai, our God, has conquered for our benefit?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this is interesting because it is the messengers who are Israelites. They're part of the house of Israel, and they're basically saying, "Chemosh is the patron deity of your land, and Chemosh has conquered that land for you, and you guys should be happy with your land that Chemosh has given you. We're going to be happy with the land that our God has given us."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It basically is recognizing Adonai is only the God of Israel.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And our next-door neighbors have their own god.

Dan Beecher Right. And that god is sovereign within their territory, so- And also, and yeah, it basically does seem to imply that, look, we stay on our side of the fence so that our God helps us, and you stay- Yeah ... on your side of the fence, and we're not coming over to your side because obviously our God wouldn't be there for us there.

Dan McClellan And they're getting a little mouthy, but yeah, that's basically the- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher the idea.

Dan McClellan And then we have in verse 29, this is where the story starts to turn.

Dan Beecher This is the part that I, when I dove into this thing on the web, oh, the internet wrings its hands about this story.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher The internet is not clear on what they're supposed to make of this story.

Dan McClellan Yes. The internet is very squeamish about this because they don't like sometimes what the Bible has to say, and so they have to change it.

Dan Beecher And- Well, and this is a very concerning story.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher It's true.

Dan McClellan So in verse 29, "The spirit of Adonai came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh. He passed on to Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed on to the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to Adonai." So he is possessed by the spirits of Adonai, and he makes a vow, "If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return victorious from the Ammonites shall be Adonai's, to be offered up by me as a burnt offering." That's unambiguous.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan The verb there is alah, which means to sacrifice as a burnt offering, and it is, I'm going to alah and olah, which means I'm going to offer as a burnt offering, a burnt offering. So there's no ambiguity at all there. The vow is to sacrifice whatever- Now ... comes through the door.

Dan Beecher Talk me through this, because one of the things I read made a very interesting point, which is- Okay ... and it aligns with something that you talked about, but it's from a different time.

Dan McClellan So- Okay ...

Dan Beecher when we talked about the nativity story, and we were talking about the manger idea- Uh-huh ... you were saying that in those times, animals were kept on the main floor of the house, and the people lived in the second story sort of thing.

Dan McClellan So- Yeah, that's where they slept and things like that.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher so one of the things that I read was he was probably expecting an animal to emerge from the house. Does- Well, that's what- Does that seem like a reasonable thing?

Dan McClellan Yeah, that's what the author is having the audience imagine.

Dan Beecher Okay. That he- Because I had never imagined that other times that I had thought about this story, because in- ... our time, what's going to emerge from a house?

Dan McClellan It's not- Yeah.

Dan Beecher Well- Oh, good ...

Dan McClellan whatever answers the door when I knock.

Dan Beecher It's one of my books. Thank God. It came out. But no- Yeah ... so we're meant to imagine that he's saying, "Whatever animal first comes out of my house."

Dan McClellan Or that's what the expectation is, yeah.

Dan Beecher Right. But let me see- So it's a much more reasonable vow than when I first read it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And the Hebrew is, "V'haya hayotsey asher yotsey mid'alte," yeah, "mid'alte bayti." So that is, "And it will be that the one coming out which leaves from the door of my house."

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So it doesn't say man, woman, child, animal, whatever. It's just the agent, the entity that comes out from the door.

Dan Beecher It is written specifically to trap him into this.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher The writing is purposefully ambiguous enough to trap him into what happens next.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And so Jephthah crosses over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the end of verse 32 says, "Adonai gave them into his hand. He inflicted a massive defeat on them."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So the Ammonites were subdued before the Israelites.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So total victory, and here's where we've got a question about God's foreknowledge. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and all those other all things, all those omnis- Uh-huh ... if God is the original omniman, then God should know what was going to happen.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And God, knowing what happened, went through with it anyway.

Dan Beecher So- And what he went through with was the first thing that came through Jephthah's door was his daughter. His only daughter.

Dan McClellan Yes. Coming out to meet him.

Dan Beecher His only child. His only child, that's right.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Which is so cute, and- ... just twist the knife a little bit there, author. Sure, I get it.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and the verse is actually quite emphatic about this. His daughter coming out to meet him, she was his only child. He had no son or daughter except her.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan The narrator is like, "I want to be clear- It's just- ... about this point."

Dan Beecher "You guys got that, right?"

Dan McClellan Yeah. And it just reiterates. "Let the reader understand."

Dan Beecher Yeah. So now he's in a pickle, because- Yeah ... he said he was going to sacrifice as a burnt offering whatever came through the door. Boom, she came through.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And he basically says, "I'm going to do it." I got no choice.

Dan McClellan Yeah, he's upset. He's like, "Ah, crap."

Dan Beecher And says, "I have- Maybe a little stronger than, "Ah, crap," but sure.

Dan McClellan Yes. He said, "Alas, my daughter. You have brought me very low. I have opened my mouth to Adonai, and I cannot take back my vow." So yeah, he's saying, "This is not what I wanted, but got to do it."

Dan Beecher And- I love that he basically blames the daughter.

Dan McClellan Yeah. "You have brought me very low.

Dan Beecher You have become the cause of great trouble for me."

Dan McClellan Like- "On this, the day of my daughter's coming out to meet me." And in verse 36, so he hasn't told her what his vow was.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But she's like, "Oh, yeah." And she says, "Do to me according to what has gone out of your mouth, now that Adonai has given you vengeance against your enemies, the Ammonites."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And she said to her father, "Let this thing be done for me."

Dan Beecher Oh, no, actually- Yeah, she knows ...

Dan McClellan it appears that she does know. Let me see. Yeah, "I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I am not able to turn away, to turn."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, she knows what's going on here.

Dan Beecher And it feels like she's not a young, this is not a seven-year-old, to say what she says.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher No. Because yeah, what she says is very mature, and she basically just says, "Well, you got to do what you got to do."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But she also says, "Give me two months to wander in the woods, in the mountains."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And this is interesting, "And bewail my virginity- Yeah ... with my friends." Tell me about that. Why is it the virginity that she's bewailing, and not the fact that she's about to get burned?

Dan McClellan Because dying as a virgin, she has no children, she has not fulfilled that kind of expectation as a woman in Israel. She's going to die before she's able to do that.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan And so, I think the idea is, if she died in childbirth, or if she died after having children or something like that, at least she fulfilled that expectation of proper Israelite society- Okay ... that you get married.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so, it's that she has died before she was able to get married.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. She's the original incel.

Dan Beecher And then, so she takes her two-month mountain vacation.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then- Going to go and live in the woods like a hippie for a couple months.

Dan Beecher And then foolishly comes back, which that's just bad planning on her part.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's just silliness.

Dan McClellan I read "My Side of the Mountain" when I was a kid, and I fantasized about running off and living on my own in the woods. Day and night. That was going to be my Bible, "My Side of the Mountain."

Dan Beecher But- You felt the call of the wild?

Dan McClellan So to speak, yeah. I thought the idea of hollowing out a huge tree and living in it just sounded so cozy to me.

Dan Beecher Absolutely.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, at the end of two months, here we have verse 39, "She returned to her father," again, there's your problem right there.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then it says, "Who did with her according to the vow he had made."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Which is quite explicit. This very clearly says- It's actually quite implicit ... he did what he said. Well, the vow was quite explicit.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan And it doesn't say, "And he did a thing."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It says, "He did to her according to the vow he had made." "Wayya'as la," he did to her, "et nidro," his vow, "asher nadar," which he vowed.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So, it quite clearly is saying he offered her as a burnt offering.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And there's an argument that what really happened is he was like, "Oh, well, I'm obviously not going to just sacrifice you, so the story doesn't say it, but what I'm going to do is just have you go become a nun, basically."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Go join a convent or something like that."

Dan Beecher You have to walk on these hot coals with Tony Robbins, and then you get... And that will count as the burnt offering, and then- Yeah, and then you got to eat nothing but organ meat.

Dan McClellan And that's an argument that is based on nothing other than a refusal to accept what the text very clearly states.

Dan Beecher Yeah. It's funny because as I read through, like I said, I was reading sort of the Internet's reaction, various reactions to this story.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And they ranged everywhere from, "Well, Jephthah was obviously an evil guy," or, "He was a flawed guy," or whatever, to, it's all very interesting to me. I think they all want to make it, this can't be about God allowing something evil or accepting, more importantly, or accepting a sacrifice that is horrific to us.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So, it has to be about something else. One of the articles that I read was a really interesting comparison. The article didn't really address the comparison the way it needed to, but made the comparison between this story and the story of Abraham and Isaac. And the fact that God command... And in this case, it was a commandment of God to go and sacrifice his son, but at the very last minute, God stops it. And why does he stop it here?

Dan McClellan At least in the version that has come down to us, yes.

Dan Beecher Oh. There are- Oh, snap.

Dan McClellan Yes. We've talked about this, haven't we?

Dan Beecher Maybe. Spoiler alert, if we haven't.

Dan McClellan Okay. I'll just pull this up really quick here. So in the story of this, you have the command to sacrifice Isaac, and, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there. Abraham arose, saddled his donkey, took two of his young men with him and his son Isaac. And on the third day, he looked up, saw the place far away. Then he said, 'Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I will go over there.' Abraham took the wood, he carried the knife," blah, blah, blah. "The two of them walked on together."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Isaac says, "Father." "Here am I, my son." He said, "The fire, the wood are here, but where's the lamb for a burnt offering?" Abraham says, "Don't want to talk about it." "And the two of them walked on together."

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan "When they came to the place that God had shown him," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So whatever happens, happens. And then verse 19, "So Abraham returned to his young men." Two go up, one comes down.

Dan Beecher Now- It's the Thunderdome.

Dan McClellan And there's the Raggedy Man, which is Abraham.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But there are ancient interpretive traditions within Judaism, ancient and medieval, that he actually went through with the sacrifice- Oh ... that he sacrificed Isaac, and they account for... Because Isaac is gone from the narrative for a while. He comes back later, but he's absent after this.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan And so one of the accounts is that he was sacrificed. He spent two years in heaven, and then God- Oh ... brought him back to life.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan The ashes of his burnt corpse were the dews on the grasses of Mount Moriah were used to reconstitute Isaac- Oh ... and he came back to life.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So there are a few different traditions that actually interpret this story as Abraham carrying through with the sacrifice. Now, if that is how the story originally read, and there are scholars who have made pretty good cases that this is what it originally read, it has been changed somewhere along the way.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But that's beside the point, and potentially- Yeah ... just ruined an opportunity for a whole other segment- That's okay ... for our show, but- We did talk...

Dan Beecher Anyway, someone who remembers all of our shows can write into us and let us know if we talked about it or not.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But here's the other thing. At very least, the main story that we get is of Abraham's hand being stayed by God.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher God saying- Yes ...

Dan McClellan "Stop.

Dan Beecher I was kidding. Can't take a joke." But unlike what this blog writer had to say, because she's trying to make that comparison and trying to figure out what's going on, but she says that for the Israelites, human sacrifice was wrong, and you and I have talked about how there are several moments in Israelite history where human sacrifice is demanded.

Dan McClellan Yes, and it seems to have sat pretty close to the surface- Yeah ... within Israelite history. As much as some people are like, "Ew, it was abhorrent," it's like they talked about it an awful lot.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And it always seemed to be right there. It always seemed to be like, "You're going to...

Dan Beecher Ha.

Dan McClellan Oh. Now this time you're going to do... Oh, just kidding." And so it seems like it's the weird uncle that no one wants to acknowledge is there.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan What is it doing there? And we've talked about this before as well. There probably was an archaic commandment to sacrifice firstborn children that they just had to find a way to kind of dance around- ... without directly acknowledging it. I'm not going to do that.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It just seems like so many of the people, Jephthah was bad, or Jephthah's sin was something along the lines of making hasty vows or something.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher It just seems so interesting that... I guess I understand why it's hard to just say this is a tragic story, but there was no out for Jephthah. It is tricky when there is an example of God intervening and saying, "Hey, don't do that."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Why didn't God intervene in this story?

Dan McClellan Well, there's an argument to make, and this is not an argument that the story is good or right, but there's an argument to make that what Jephthah demonstrated was the inviolability of his vow.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan His commitment to Adonai is so utterly comprehensive and total that he will sacrifice his own child- Yeah ... so as not to break the vow, and that is an ideal that a lot of people don't want to acknowledge it, but there are a lot of ways that- that people will champion those who will sacrifice human life, their own or others, for an ideal as costly signaling, as a way to show, "Look how much this means to me."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And within the Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, we've all heard stories about children who have passed away because they were denied blood transfusions, because that's a very big, costly signal for Jehovah's Witnesses. And within the community for which that is an ideal, they are held up as examples- Yeah ... of how they were willing to give up their child's life in order to follow that commandment. And there are a lot of traditions that talk about how women should protect their virginity up to and including at the cost of their own life.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Women who have been sexually assaulted, who have been raped, sometimes they are told things, whether intentionally or otherwise, they are given the impression that they should have fought to the death- Right ... rather than allow their quote, unquote, "virginity" to be taken from them, which would be an example of allowing one's own life to be sacrificed to hold up that ideal as another piece of costly signaling.

Dan Beecher So- Right. But that is actually an example of- While that ideal doesn't- That is an example of abusing someone who's just been abused, but that's- Yes.

Dan McClellan Absolutely.

Dan Beecher There- But you're right. It's the idea of the costly signaling.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher To me, if I were to guess, I think I would guess that what the author of Judges 11 wanted me to take away from this was the great faith of Jephthah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And one of the things you get in the next chapter is Jephthah continues to have military success.

Dan Beecher So he's been- In other words- So he's blessed by the Lord.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan If the message was, "Ooh, God didn't want that," we would see some kind of reaction on the part of God.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But Jephthah continues to have military success- Yeah.

Dan Beecher But- ...

Dan McClellan which means that at best, God's like, "I'm just leaving this alone." But more likely, God is supportive of this. God is like, "Hey, yeah, you did it."

Dan Beecher Way to go, dude.

Dan McClellan "You passed the test."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher The Bible is not shy about telling us when God is displeased, so it does seem like, at very least, God is not mad about this.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And interestingly, there are folks who will be like, "Yeah, but it says everybody did what was right in their own eyes, and blah, blah, blah." That actually comes and goes.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan It's in waves, and it happens before Jephthah arises, but God is the one who inspires Jephthah. There's no part of Jephthah's career that is at all tainted by any reference to people behaving inappropriately. In fact, it's not until after Jephthah dies, so in chapter 12, you have verse seven, "Jephthah judged Israel six years. Then Jephthah the Gileadite died and was buried in his town in Gilead." And it's after that that it says, and then it's after the next judge, I think Elon, who was not a great judge at all. And then Samson, and it's after Jephthah's death that the narrative says, "And then Israel returned to its sin," or something like that.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan So, Jephthah's tenure seems to be a period of relative prosperity, peace, righteousness, obedience, whatever. It is not marked by the condemnation that we find in other parts of the Book of Judges.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So, all indications point to the narrators accepting this- Okay ... and presenting it not as a tragic tale of moral failure, but as a display of integrity and of faith.

Dan Beecher And- Rectitude.

Dan McClellan Yes. And that's problematic.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, there you go.

Dan McClellan Fun.

Dan Beecher That's a lot of fun. Let's move on to our next thing, which is taking issue. And the issue that we are going to take today, and I do take issue with this- Mm-hmm ... is with the practice of circumcision.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And so I wanted to chat about it because it is mentioned many, many times in the Bible, starting- Mm-hmm ... in Genesis 17. But I'm going to start with something that blew my mind when I was first reading it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And this was when I was reading in Exodus. It's the story, Moses has, at this moment, this is Exodus 4, and at this moment, Moses has left Egypt. He's taken his wife. He's become a shepherd or whatever, and blah, blah, blah. He's happy, and then the Lord tells him he's got to go back, and he's not pleased about it, whatever.

Dan McClellan He takes his- Well, you'll recall the Lord is like, "You're going to go back, do all this dangerous, scary stuff- Right ... but I'm going to make sure it doesn't work."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Exactly.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And Moses is like, "Wow, thanks a lot, God. I'm very excited about this."

Dan Beecher See our show a couple weeks ago about- Yeah ... the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart for that.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But there's this weird moment. So in verse 24 Basically, they stop at an inn or whatever. They're on their way to Egypt, but you've got to stop at an inn along the way.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher Probably a Motel 6. You never know. Maybe a Marriott property.

Dan McClellan The Hebrew is malon, which just means spending the night place.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, yeah. They stop at a spending the night place.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm. And on the way, this is verse 24, "On the way, at a place where they spent the night, the Lord met him and tried to kill him." And that had me, "Huh?"

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That I had to read 52 times before I was like, "Did I actually catch this? Is that Moses? What are we talking-- Is it the innkeeper? What's happening here?" But the remedy blew my mind even further, which is- Yeah ... that "His wife, Zipporah, took a flint..." This is some quick thinking. I'm not sure who thinks of this, but "Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, touched it to his feet with it, or touched his feet with it." I assume his is the Lord? Or his dad's? There's many his. There's many males in this. It could be the- Yeah ... the child. It could be Moses. It could be the Lord. I'm not sure whose foot gets touched with the foreskin.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It just says, "His feet." The immediate antecedent would be her son.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But it's not explicit that that's the foot that is being touched.

Dan Beecher Okay. So, we don't know who, and then she says, "Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me." And then it says, "So he let him alone." "It was then that she said, 'A bridegroom of blood,' because of the circumcision." I was mystified when I read this.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher God's going to kill her husband, so she cuts off her child's foreskin.

Dan McClellan Help.

Dan Beecher I don't know what I'm dealing with here.

Dan McClellan Yeah. I don't either.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan We don't have any clear answers to this. It seems to be emphasizing the importance of circumcision.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But yeah, the narrative is just bizarre, and the fact that Adonai meets him in the middle of the night makes people think, "This sounds like night demon kind of territory. What's going on here?" There's a commentary that I was looking at, a recent one in the International Critical Commentary series, one of my four favorite commentary series- Uh-huh ... where there are three main approaches that scholars have shaken out into, that I think are fascinating. So, one of them is Velhausen and others. Velhausen was a 19th-century very, very influential biblical scholar. "Have seen it against a backdrop in which circumcision was normally practiced on young men in preparation for marriage. On this view, the story was originally an etiological explanation for the Israelite adoption of circumcision in infancy and provides an alternative explanation to that given by the priestly source in Genesis 17." So, Genesis 17, it's like Covenant of Abraham. Abraham, do your thing.

Dan Beecher Yeah. We'll get to Abraham.

Dan McClellan We'll get to that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Because that's its own... I am further mystified.

Dan McClellan And so the idea might be this is a different explanation of how circumcision came to be a thing for the early Hebrews.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan A second view, we've got Meier, Gressmann, and others, "Reconstructed a purported original version of a story known as the 'sage,' in which a night demon, perhaps already identified with Adonai, attacked Moses?"

Dan Beecher Question mark.

Dan McClellan "In his quest for the ius primae noctis, but was deceived by Zipporah's circumcision of her husband and her daubing of the blood on the demon's penis."

Dan Beecher What?

Dan McClellan "This was an etiology of circumcision as a marriage ritual." So, that's another take.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan And then the third one, Morgenstern and Kosmala argued that originally Zipporah's child, not Moses, was endangered because he had not been circumcised. In other words- Oh ... God was coming for the kid. And because- Okay ... the kid was not circumcised, Zipporah was like, "Ha.

Dan Beecher Slice.

Dan McClellan Got you in time." So, yeah, you don't get the kid.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan None of them make sense to a modern- No ...

Dan Beecher sensibility.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher I have not been aided at all in understanding by any of those explanations.

Dan McClellan Well, yeah. And Davies, the author of this commentary, says, "All of these theories involve bold and unfounded speculations."

Dan Beecher So. Then why did you tell us about them?

Dan McClellan Well, he's recounting what- Yeah ... recent scholars have- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher said.

Dan McClellan But yeah, it seems to be some way to emphasize the importance of circumcision, and perhaps it's a scary stories to tell in the dark situation.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, "Hey, make sure to circumcise your kid. You don't want God knocking on your door."

Dan Beecher You never know when God's going to pop up and decide to kill you.

Dan McClellan Yeah. That reframes a little bit the popular Latter-day Saint painting of Jesus in the middle of the night knocking on the door.

Dan Beecher "Hey, are all of your children's penises intact? Because I'm not down with that."

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher Well, let's get to Abraham because this is- Yeah ... in Genesis 17 is where we first get this idea. God said to Abraham, this is verse nine, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep between me and you, and your offspring ever after. Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between you and me." Now that is some costly signaling right there.

Dan McClellan Yes. And then, "Every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring."

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Yeah. If you happen to be captured in battle and sold into an Israelite household, your day's not getting any better.

Dan Beecher Yeah. It already sucks for you, but we got even worse news.

Dan McClellan Yes. We talked about this when we were talking about recording this segment. You can imagine Abraham getting a look in his eye and being like, "Family meeting."

Dan Beecher Yeah. Because literally, first of all, he does it to himself.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Which, that is intense.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's a level of faith that I have never had about anything, I will say that.

Dan McClellan There are some illustrations of that event- Oh my gosh ... in illuminated manuscripts- Yeah ... of the Bible, where he's just sitting there, man spreading, with what looks like a butter knife, just kind of like do, do, do, and- Literally when they were thinking about, "Hey, which stories should we do a picture of?"

Dan Beecher Somebody was like, "Hey, I got an idea." That to me is bizarre- Yeah ... to make that choice. But okay, so there you go. He cuts off his own foreskin.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher Then he goes to his family and says, "Boys, let's do this thing." Then he goes to everybody.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And he just says, "Hey, the Lord has told me that we have to do this." And frankly, this is where I believe we learn that Abraham is the best salesman of the universe. Because it would take a lot to convince most men that this was an acceptable thing to be required to do, and somehow he manages to do it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And the story is almost certainly an ideology and origin story for this practice.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which is causally and historically opaque. Meaning, by the time this is something that you just did, it was not clear what purpose it served, and it was not clear why the people who started it came up with it. And oddly enough, you see circumcision in ancient societies all around the world.

Dan Beecher Oh, really?

Dan McClellan Yeah. Pre-Colombian American nations- Huh ... seem to have practiced circumcision. And one of the things they seem to have done is some kind of blood ritual where they thread something through the foreskin and it's a whole process. But I think in the area of West Asia and Africa, you do see it in some early Egyptian art- Huh ... where it seems to be associated with some kind of rite of passage. Because it's young men who are having it done to them.

Dan Beecher Oh, interesting.

Dan McClellan And some scholars speculate this might have been done because of some kind of perception of purity.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Maybe this is something that is perceived to result in a more pure whatever. Medically, there are people who argue that there are benefits to it, but that is fiercely debated by an awful lot of people that it doesn't seem to be any good reason.

Dan Beecher And what benefits are touted are vanishingly minimal.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher They exist, but it's a lot. It's not much to justify a procedure that is not particularly dangerous, though it is... Anyway, we can get into it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I will say, I think it's fascinating. The practice is very common now in the United States. It's not as common in Europe.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher But do you know why? Have you read up on why it's very common in the United States, even among non-Jewish men?

Dan McClellan I have not read up on why.

Dan Beecher John Harvey Kellogg.

Dan McClellan Oh, that makes sense. I think I have heard that.

Dan Beecher The lunatic who gave us cornflakes, but then also was this weird health nut who was- Well, weren't the cornflakes supposed to keep down the urges or something like that?

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Everything he did was about tamping down sexual urges and- ... his whole idea was if we start back up circumcising the boys again, it will keep them from masturbating, which I can attest No.

Dan McClellan Didn't work?

Dan Beecher No. That's not true at all. But it is sad because the foreskin actually has a lot of nerve endings, and so it does diminish sensitivity to do this thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So I am personally, this is a very personal decision and I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I am personally wildly against this practice. I think it is horrific myself. If you want to do it as an adult, knock yourself out. But to do it to a- Yeah ... baby is weird. Anyway, but I think what I heard you say, and I want you to confirm this, is the idea that we just have no idea why this practice started or why it was done in the... Where it came from.