How Paul Got Out of Jerusalem Alive

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. And in this segment, we're going to be hopefully doing quite a bit of the former.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Is that right, Dan?

Dan Beecher We got, well- Mm-hmm ... we're, yeah, we're gonna be, uh, doing a chapter and verse, and I'm kind of excited about it 'cause it's, uh, it's, we're delving into some Acts, and, uh, we're gonna talk about Paul and- Mm-hmm ... and his, uh, his, uh, i- in, in... What was, what's the word I'm looking for?

Dan McClellan Indiscretions? In-

Dan Beecher No, no. I, I was- Well, maybe he was indiscreet.

Dan McClellan In pris- incarceration?

Dan Beecher I was, I was gonna say infamous. That was the word I was looking for.

Dan McClellan Oh, oh, no. Oh, you mean infamous?

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan He's not just famous, he's infamous. He's

Dan Beecher more than famous.

Dan McClellan More than famous. Gotcha.

Dan Beecher He's, uh, his, his infamous incarceration- Okay ... uh, in, in Acts 23 through 26, uh- Yep ... roughly. So let's just dive in. Uh, we'll, we'll become i- infamous ourselves and, uh- ... and we'll, we'll do a chapter and verse. All right. So here we are in Acts. Uh, I have not... I'll be honest, I, this will surprise no one, I've not read the Bible. I read the parts of the Bible that I need to read to bone up for this show. And I am, uh, obviously, as we've got... You know, we've been doing this for three and some, uh, and, and change years now. Uh, I, I, uh, I, I've read quite a bit of it- Yeah ... uh, in, in fits and starts, in bits and pieces.

Dan McClellan There's some, still some dark spots, some shadowy areas, though- Yeah ... where we, we, we tend not to, uh, like, uh, like Mufasa said, "Don't, never go there where the, with the-"

Dan Beecher Don't. Yeah. I, I, I try not to, but- But one of the things that I've kind of missed that's interesting is the story of Paul, which I kind of have a vague sense of. I've heard of the road to Damascus. I've heard of Saul. But, uh, I think before we really get to the story that we're going to get to- Mm-hmm ... I, I would like a, just a quick, a quick primer, primer, who-what- Mm-hmm ... however you wanna pronounce it- ... on, on Paul up until this point. Can you just give me the, the, the, the CliffsNotes on that?

Dan McClellan Uh, well, yeah, we're in... So Acts starts off talking mainly about Peter, and then is like, "But you don't wanna hear about Peter. You wanna hear about Paul." And so, um-

Dan Beecher But wait, there's more. Act now and we'll throw in Paul.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The, the real Mark Hamill. Um, that's a deep cut. That's, that's gonna be a deep cut for some folks. But, uh, uh, but yeah, this, uh... Well, the, the, the most immediate context is he's, he returns to, uh, Jerusalem, and there are some accusations waiting there for him of teaching against the temple, against the Torah, against the Jewish people. The temple is still standing in this time period. Uh, and he's nearly killed by a crowd.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, so he's having a rough time of, uh, of a lot of this. And-

Dan Beecher Yeah. I, it's, as I was reading these chapters, I, the, I'm- Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna take us back a little further because I kept- Okay ... learning things about Paul, and then I was like, "Oh, wait, he's a what? Oh, wait, he's a what?" Because- ... uh, because at one point he's a s- he's a Pharisee, and I'm like, "Oh, he's- Uh-huh ... a Pharisee." And then- Yeah ... at another point, he's a Roman, and I'm like, "Oh, he's a Roman? What's a... "

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, so, so, so we have a Roman citizen, a born Roman citizen. Is that right?

Dan McClellan Right. Yeah, yeah. He was, uh, he was born a citizen, so, uh, which, which is not necessarily, uh, incommensurate with being, a, a Pharisee. He can be both. Uh, and so this is... And this is what gets him out of trouble, is, uh, when there are times when he's going to be, uh, you know, shackled for causing a riot and, and he says, "Is this how you treat a Roman citizen?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and, uh-

Dan Beecher He's got cards to play with this guy ... they're like,

Dan McClellan "What?" Yeah. And, um- So, um, so this is... He's got, he's got plenty of cards up his sleeve. Uh, and, uh, he's been traveling around. He's been starting up, uh, congregations. He's been teaching the good word, and now he's in trouble with the, the Sanhedrin. And he-

Dan Beecher And what is the Sanhedrin?

Dan McClellan The Sanhedrin is the, is the council, the Jewish council that- Okay ... is kind of their, their l- highest legal body in the Roman period when they don't have an awful lot of authority. So the council is, um, you know, in kind of a love-hate relationship with the Roman authorities because they get a lot of their power from the Roman authorities, but also- Right ... they don't like the Roman authorities. Uh, and so the Roman tribune, um, is, uh, Claudius, uh, is like, "Take him to the, to the Sanhedrin to figure out what precisely he's done." So-

Dan Beecher I'm glad that you told me what the Sanhedrin was, because I was picturing, like, a, like... I was like, "A tetrahedron." I w- I thought it was like the octagon. Let's take him-

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah, take him to the octagon and we will test his mettle. Um, yeah, no, it's, uh, it's not quite like that, but yeah, the, the Sanhedrin is the, the council.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and that's how we, that's where our scene is laid at the beginning of, of Acts 23:1, where he basically, uh, is, is given the floor.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, he starts off by saying, "Up to this day, I have lived my life with a clear conscience before God." And then the high priest says, "Hey, smack him." And, uh-

Dan Beecher Which is a pretty, like, that's pretty funny. Like, I mean, I guess he just said- ... not guilty really. And then they're like, "Oh, yeah? Well, what if we hit you now?"

Dan McClellan Yeah. How does that taste? Yeah. I can, I can just, uh, I, I w- I would love to see Monty Python do this and- ... and have somebody up there going, "Smite him." And, uh.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Or maybe, maybe that's more a, uh, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia kind of vibe. But, um... And, and then Paul says, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall." Which is kind of as, as salty as Paul gets.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, but yeah, you, you... I would love to see that dramatized, where Paul is just like, "How very dare you?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh-

Dan Beecher Excuse much. Rude or anything.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, he says, "Are you sitting there to judge me according to the law? Yet in violation of the law you order me to be struck?" And then the, the people standing by who were ordered to strike him were like, "How dare you insult God's high priest?" And, and this is where, where Paul kind of does a m- mea culpa.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Uh, and is like, um, "I did not realize, brothers, that he was the high priest. For it is written, 'You shall not speak evil of a leader of your people.'" So he's, he's kinda, like, backs down off of his bravado.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, but then he-

Dan Beecher Every- everybody needs to take a bit of a chill pill at this point.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher There's a lot of striking talk happening.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then, and then according to verse six, Paul noticed that some were Sadducees and others were Pharisees. Where, and, and so you can kind of see the dra- dramatization where he's like, "My bad, my bad, but, uh, what about this?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And basically just hurls this rhetorical bomb into the middle of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He says, "Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead." Uh, and then because the Pharisees believe in the resurrection of the dead, the Sadducees do not, uh, they, you know, you s- you get the, the raised fists-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... at each other in the council. And so he basically, uh, starts a squabble, an internal squabble-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... in the, the Sanhedrin as his, uh, h- as that, that card that he has up his sleeve.

Dan Beecher And is the idea here that he's sort of... He, I mean, he sou- it sounds like he's pulling a bit of a fast one.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Where-

Dan McClellan Yeah, he... This is like what Jesus would do, where, where he was like, "Oh, the- ... the one among you who is free from sin cast the first stone." Like, you know, he's-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, that's-

Dan Beecher Because he's not actually there because of his belief in resurrection. He's there-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... because of his belief in all resurrection, right? In, in Jesus's resurrection specifically.

Dan McClellan Well, he's there, yeah. The, they understand the, his preaching to be counterproductive and, and to be preaching against the Jewish institutions, the temple, the Torah, uh, the Jewish identity. And so he, he basically, he starts this squabble, and, uh, the certain scribes of the Pharisees group stood up and contended, "We find nothing wrong with this man. What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?" Because they believe in spirits and angels, and they believe in the resurrection, and so now that he's started the fight, they gotta take his side. Um, and then the dissension becomes violent. So, like, they're... You wonder how they get anything done when all anybody has to do is go, "Resurrection." And, um-

Dan Beecher And then the whole thing

Dan McClellan ... you know, then the fistfights break out.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and then the, the tribune, fearing that they would tear Paul to pieces, ordered the soldiers to go down, take him by force, and bring him into the barracks. And, uh, and then the next verse, uh, you know, is, what usually happens when, when you start a fight at the Sanhedrin and you get thrown in the barracks? That night, the lo- Lord stood near him and said, "Keep up your courage, for just as you have testified for me in Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also in Rome." So we-

Dan Beecher Thus sealing his fate-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... for a while.

Dan McClellan But we get, we got a, a nice little, um, you know, mile marker-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... in our, our story.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan A little bit of foreboding. Uh, the, the omniscient narrator has decided to chime in-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and, and let you know where things are headed.

Dan Beecher Foreshadowing, I would say.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I mean, maybe it's foreboding as... I guess it's foreboding as well 'cause it means he's gonna be in captivity for a lot longer than he had to have been.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then obviously there's a conspiracy, and a bunch of, uh, his enemies have bound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink until they had killed Paul. Because, you know, that's how things go when you, you get together with your buddies and you're like, "We're not gonna eat or drink until we have done this stupid thing."

Dan Beecher Yeah, it was like-

Dan McClellan Um.

Dan Beecher It was, it was, yeah. It was like they, they, they cursed themselves if they, if they were gonna eat or drink- ... before they kill... Which, by the way, did they starve to death? I, we don't get a- We, we, we don't get a follow-up-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... on that, but I feel like we should.

Dan McClellan It, it seems like they probably broke their oath. I-

Dan Beecher And there,

Dan McClellan I would, and I would like to know if the Oath Keepers have ever said, "We will, we are not gonna eat or drink-" "... until we have, uh, done the thing." Um-

Dan Beecher Uh, by the way-

Dan McClellan ... until-

Dan Beecher ... this is, uh, the, this was, like, 40, 40 plu- over 40 men who, uh, who-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... conspired to kill him.

Dan McClellan Yeah, there were 40 people, and they went straight to the chief priests and said, "Hey, just so you know- ... we took an oath, we bound ourselves by an oath to taste no food until we have killed Paul." And, and, and then they're like, "So you and the council must notify the tribune to bring him down to you on the pretext that you wanna make a more thorough examination of this case, and we are ready to do away with him before he arrives." It's, it's not really a secret combination here. It's a, it's a- ... quite public combination-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... where they, they go to the high priest and he's like, "So here's our scheme-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, to illegally murder the guy that you're trying." Um, and the son of Paul's sister- Huh? ... um, evidently- Paul's got family in the area

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... heard about the ambush, so he went and gained entrance to the barracks and told Paul. And here's why you gotta keep your secret combination secret.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan When you go announce on the street, "Yeah, we're gonna march down there and we c- took an oath, oath not to eat or drink anything, uh, until we've killed Paul. So yeah, we're gonna go down there." Uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah. Hey, none of you are his nephew, right?

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. Nobody-

Dan Beecher Nobody here is his nephew, right? 'Cause, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... that would, that would ruin the whole thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah, keep this on the DL, everybody. Um, just 'cause we're shouting it from the rooftops. And, um, so they get word to Paul, and he calls one of the centurions and s- uh, says, "Take this young man to the tribune, for he has something to report to him." So he took him and brought him to the c- tribune and said, "The prisoner Paul called me and asked me to bring this young man to you. He has something to tell you." The tribune took him by the hand, drew him aside privately, and asks, "What is it that you have to report to me?" And here you can envision the tribune getting down on one knee so he can be eye level with the kid. Ev- evidently he's a kid if he's taking him by the hand. And he's like, "All right, young man, what is it?" And, uh, "The Jews have agreed to ask you to bring Paul down to the council tomorrow as though they were going to inquire more thoroughly into his case, but do not be persuaded by them, for more than 40 of their men are lying in ambush for him. They have bound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink until they kill him. They're ready now and are waiting for your consent." Um, and then the tribune's like, "Uh, okay. Well, be on your way, young man." "Tell no one you have informed me of this."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and-

Dan Beecher Be a little, be a, a little more discreet than they were.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um, so he grabs two centurions and, uh, is basically gonna abscond with Paul, uh, in the night as, as one does-

Dan Beecher Yeah, sure

Dan McClellan ... for, uh, Caesarea-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... which is a lovely, uh, coastal city. This is where Herod basically built his, his summer home. Um-

Dan Beecher A coastal city in what is now modern-day Israel, is that right?

Dan McClellan Correct.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yes, right on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, and gets 200 soldiers, 70 horsemen, and 200 spearmen just to, uh, just to ensure that those 40 wackadoos are not able to, to, you know, chase him down or anything.

Dan Beecher That fe- that seems sufficient to me.

Dan McClellan Yeah. You would think that-

Dan Beecher That's a 200, uh, against 40, uh-

Dan McClellan Maybe even overkill?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But, yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Plenty.

Dan McClellan So, um-

Dan Beecher More than enough.

Dan McClellan And he also, uh, provides mounts for Paul to ride-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... um, and take him safely to Felix, the governor, and wrote a letter, Claudius Lysias to His Excellency, the Governor Felix, greetings, and then basically says, uh, "This man was seized by the Jews, was about to be killed by them, but when I learned that he was a Roman, I came with the guard and rescued him. And, uh, I wanna know what the charge is. I brought him to their council. I found that he was accused concerning questions of their law but was charged with nothing deserving death or imprisonment. When I was informed there would be a plot against the man, I sent him to you at once, ordering his accusers also to state before you what they have against him." So that's the letter, and now I'm thinking of, uh, the end of, uh, uh, of Gladiator when, you know, they're all... everybody's darting around in the night with a little conspiracy. Um, so they-

Dan Beecher The thing, the thing that I'm still mystified by is, A, uh, sorry to go back, but now we've had him, we've had him be able to ri- register visually that there are Sadducees and Pharisees there. I, what, did they have uniforms? Did they have a big S on their chest and a, and a, and a P? Like, it just seems-

Dan McClellan Uh, yeah

Dan Beecher ... I don't know how-

Dan McClellan Well, no, it was, it was, uh, red and blue bandanas.

Dan Beecher Yeah, exactly.

Dan McClellan So, no, they, um... Yeah, we, we don't real- I don't think we have a good idea about any kind of dress that, that might have clearly distinguished every Sadducee from every Pharisee. That's a great question, though. Um-

Dan Beecher Clearly they had some way of distingu- like, he had-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... some way of visually distinguishing them-

Dan McClellan Yeah, perhaps-

Dan Beecher ... which is interesting to me

Dan McClellan ... they, and it, and it could be the way they wore their tassels-

Dan Beecher Sure

Dan McClellan ... or, you know-

Dan Beecher Sure

Dan McClellan ... uh, something like that. There, there could have been, there certainly could have been some tradition, uh, that, you know, they had the, they had the big- Fur hats ... uh, um, uh, their, their... I don't know. Uh, that's a, that's a great question, though. That's an interesting thing I never think about.

Dan Beecher And then, and now suddenly we know, you know, I... It occur- it just occurred to me, like, the, you know, the guy's like, "I found that he was a Roman, so we can't... You know, I gotta protect him." How? How do you know? You're just taking his word for it- ... that he's a Roman? Does he have the, you know, the Wakanda thing on his lip? I- Like, how do you know?

Dan McClellan Uh, yeah, 'cause I, I don't think they talk about him presenting any papers or anything like that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Anyway.

Dan McClellan So, um, yeah.

Dan Beecher I, I don't, I, I'm... These are the mysteries that, that I get hung up on.

Dan McClellan Yeah. You got any, you got any papes, man? Um, but, uh, so they, they send him off to, uh, Felix, and, uh, they keep him under guard in Herod's headquarters. So, um, interesting place. You can go, you can go visit- well, I wouldn't visit there right now, but-

Dan Beecher No

Dan McClellan ... um, the, it is a visitable place, uh, that has a, a lovely cafe- ... uh, by the, by the, the former, uh, port area, uh, that they, where the ships would come in. What do they call that? My brain is just gone blank.

Dan Beecher I mean, I, I think port sounds right.

Dan McClellan Okay, fine. Or they, they've built up a kind of break to-

Dan Beecher Oh, like a pier?

Dan McClellan Uh, well, to, to-

Dan Beecher Or... Oh, oh, sure

Dan McClellan ... to allow, uh, the, the ships to come in and be in calmer water.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah.

Dan McClellan And yeah, I sound like a fourth grader right now trying to describe this thing.

Dan Beecher It's okay.

Dan McClellan You know, it looks like the thing where the-

Dan Beecher You know?

Dan McClellan Um, I saw one when I was in Par-

Dan Beecher So is this Herod? You said Herod. Is, is this a Herod-

Dan McClellan Well,

Dan Beecher a He- ... that we know, or it's a different Herod, or?

Dan McClellan Well, it was built by, by Herod the Great, but yeah, we do have, uh, I believe it's Herod Agrippa- Okay ... that is, uh, in this area. And, um-

Dan Beecher Oh, that's right. I forget that there are, like, 400 Herods in this-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah ...

Dan Beecher in the space of, like- It was- ... 50 years. There's all the Herods.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And- Okay ... uh, it was, it was, it was Herod the Great who actually built the area up, but- Okay ... and, and obviously, uh, all his little, uh, his little Herods, they got to, to keep-

Dan Beecher Your va- your various and sundry Herods.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. So, uh, they, they keep him under, uh, under lock and key, Herod's headquarters. Uh, five days later, the high priest Ananias shows up with some elders and an attorney.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan I got my representation- ... here. Uh, and they go, and they report their case against Paul to the governor, and then they summon Paul, and then, uh, Tertullus or Tertullus begins to... Tertullus. That would be... He was, he was part of the entourage. Um, but, uh, began to accuse him, uh, saying, "Because of you, most excellent Felix, we have long enjoyed peace and reforms have been made for this people because of your foresight. In every way and everywhere, we welcome this with utmost gratitude, but to detain you no further, I beg you to hear us briefly with your customary graciousness." Uh, with the butt-kissing out of the way- ... "We have, in fact, found this man a pestilent fellow- Jeez ... an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. He even tried to profane the temple, so we seized him. By examining him yourself, you will be able to learn from him concerning everything of which we accuse him," which sounds kind of funny. Uh, he's like, "He did some bad stuff. You ask him. He'll tell you- Right ... all the bad stuff he did."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Because, uh, th- because I, I can't imagine that there was a law on the books against being a pestilent fellow.

Dan McClellan Fellow, yeah.

Dan Beecher It d- That, that feels like that's, that's a tough one to, uh, to nail down.

Dan McClellan Yeah. This, this is, uh, not, uh, Judean code section 10.303- Right ... paragraph A, subsection 1. Uh- Oh ... and then the governor, uh, motions-

Dan Beecher Oh, by the way, but w- I, I do wanna stop and just say, well, the Nazarenes is... So he was also a Nazarene, or?

Dan McClellan Well, Nazarene just means somebody from Nazareth, but it seems like that took on significance as a way to refer to followers of Jesus.

Dan Beecher Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Dan McClellan These are the ones... 'Cause we, I, um-

Dan Beecher The sect of the, of the Nazarenes is, is just, is Christians, but we don't have that word yet. Right.

Dan McClellan Right. So this is, this is the, the, those weirdos who follow the Nazarene.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So, um, the, uh, that guy from Nazareth.

Dan Beecher And he tried to profane the temple. How did he try to do that? Do we know? Uh- There was-

Dan McClellan Yes. It's, it's-

Dan Beecher There was- ...

Dan McClellan much earlier in Acts. It's, it's way overblown. Um, but, but yeah, he, he is basically, he, uh, was talking about Jesus and, uh-

Dan Beecher Oh, okay ...

Dan McClellan about... Yeah. It's... Hey, I haven't read that chapter in a while.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher Sorry. I, I do like it when I- You're

Dan McClellan calling me on it. ...

Dan Beecher I do like it when I get to stump you sometimes.

Dan McClellan Well, and yeah, it, it happens. Uh, that, that's- It's, uh, it's fun on, on the lives I do on YouTube if I can get through an entire, like, two-and-a-half-hour live without getting stumped, but it's- Yeah ... it's rare these days-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan 'cause they're, they're getting pretty... They, they've got all kinds of questions. Um, governor motions for Paul to speak. He, uh, does the, um, you know, the pleasantries.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Uh, the, "It is not more than 12 days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem. They did not find me disputing with anyone in the temple or, or stirring up a crowd either in the synagogues or throughout the city. Neither can they prove to you the charge that they're n- that they now bring against me. But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our ancestors, believing everything laid down according to the law or written in the prophets." And, and he basically is testifying now, "That there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous, therefore I do best, I do my best always to have a clear conscience towards God and all people. Uh, I came to bring alms to my people and to offer sacrifices. While I was doing this, they found me in the temple completing the rite of purification without any crowd or disturbance. Uh, but there were some Jews from Asia. They ought to be here before you to make an accusation if they have anything against me, or let these men here tell what crime they had found when I stood before the council." Unless it was this one sentence that I called out while standing before them, it is about the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you today. Um, and maybe Paul's like, "Huh? Anybody? No? No fights- ... breaking out for this one?" Um, and, uh, Felix, who the text says was rather well-informed about the Way, and this is... I don't know if you've heard this before, but people talk about how before it was Christianity, it was just called the Way. The Way. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's, he's, he uses that as... He says, "Which they call a sect." So he's clear- Yeah ... when he says, "The Way," and it's capitalized also in, uh, in the NRSV.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. In, in most translation it looks, translations it looks like it's capitalized.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So-

Dan McClellan But, hmm ...

Dan Beecher so, so that's, that's sort of an official, uh, designation of, of Jesus follower.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher I'm a member of the Way. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The, uh, like, you know, if you're in the Matrix universe, you got the One. And here we got the Way.

Dan Beecher Yeah, exactly.

Dan McClellan Uh, and so he adjourns and, and basically, uh, delays stuff. "When Lysias the tribune comes down, I will decide your case." Uh, so he, he orders the centurion to keep him in custody, but says, "Give him a little bit of liberty, not to prevent any of his friends from taking care of his needs." So he's basically under a kind of, uh, house arrest- Uh, and he's got buddies who can come and go and do his shopping for him and stuff like that.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, and then it- I was- I, I mentioned to you when we discussed doing this segment that I've, uh, I've been to Caesarea a couple of times. First time was in 2019, and then in 2023 I was there. And, uh, in between my two trips there, they discovered, uh, cells, uh, underground. Not, not like flagella and stuff like that, not those kinds of cells, but like- ... prison cells that were associated with the complex, the Herodian complex, which included a hippodrome and, and all that kind of stuff, and, and Herod's palace.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and one of the, the popular things to do, uh, visitors to Caesarea is to go... There's a, there's a little courtyard, remains of a little courtyard where there was a little, uh, there's a hole in the middle where there would've been a, you know, a little fire that would've been burning. But s- a lot of scholars think if, if this is historical, that he was before Felix in Caesarea, this would've been the room where-

Dan Beecher Okay. Sure ...

Dan McClellan it would've happened. And so a, a popular thing for visitors to do is one of them goes and stands where the, the throne would've, or, you know, the seat would've been, and the other kind of sits there and, and pleads their case before- ... uh, the, uh, the area. But, but, uh, between my two visits, they discovered these, uh, these underground, uh, jail cells, which, i- depending on how m- how much comfort they afforded Paul, uh, he might've been imprisoned in those very jail cells, so. That's

Dan Beecher nice.

Dan McClellan Um, it does-

Dan Beecher I mean, not nice. It's not nice- Yeah ... to be imprisoned, but that's cool that they-

Dan McClellan It, it's fascinating. Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's cool that they found that. And- Yeah ... and, and also n- like any time something that we read from the Bible can match up to a, an actual, like, thing that we know about now, that's always neat. That's always- Yeah ... extra cool.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, uh, so, so the, uh, the guys wants to delay things a little bit, and delays things for a couple of years. Yeah,

Dan Beecher sure. Why not?

Dan McClellan What's a couple of years between friends?

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and you have, uh... So some days later when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him speak concerning faith in Christ Jesus. So he's kind of, he's, he's kind of like a party favor. He's like-

Dan Beecher Yeah. He says- ...

Dan McClellan "My wife wants to see the Jewish guy. Bring him out." "And tell us what's, what's the thing you say about Jesus? Um, and-"

Dan Beecher Do that thing you do where you talk- Yeah ... about that guy 'cause that, I, that's always fun.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then it says, "And as he discussed justice, self-control, and the coming judgment, Felix became frightened and said, 'Go away for the present. When I have an opportunity, I will send for you.'" And it says, "At the same time, he hoped that money would be given him by Paul, and for that reason, he used to send him very often and converse with him." So i- it sounds like it, Paul is, is Felix's little play thing there- Right ... in prison in, in Caesarea. And, uh, and then Felix is, like, replaced by Porcius Festus. And, uh, it says, "Since he wanted to grant the Jews a favor, Felix left Paul in prison." So- Okay ... uh, yeah, they didn't have a lot of, uh... The due process seems like it's being kind of stymied a little bit here.

Dan Beecher I mean, it, I, I, we don't know yet. What we do know is that the right to a speedy trial was not, uh, was not one that was afforded to him. Yeah.

Dan McClellan We were, we were still a little ways off from, from Madison penning- Yeah ... uh, the, uh, the rights that would later become part of the... Uh, what was it? Was it the Ten Commandments? No.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan That's not right.

Dan Beecher The, the Bill of Rights.

Dan McClellan The Bill of Commandments. That's right.

Dan Beecher The Bill of-

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher The Bill of the Ten Commandments. Um, we need to press on. We- Yeah ... we're, we're, we're running out of time here, but-

Dan McClellan Oh, it's just, it's, it's, there's so many cool details in here. Uh, Paul appeals to the emperor.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Uh, Paul is like, "Look, I, I know my rights." Um, there are very few of them.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And they are being trampled on, but, uh, I, uh, wanna go before the emperor. Uh, I've done no wrong to the Jews, as you very well know, Acts 25:10. Now, if, uh... And then Festus says, "You have appealed to the emperor. To the emperor you will go." And then-

Dan Beecher And that's the emperor of Rome in Rome?

Dan McClellan Uh, yes. And that's, and, and I think that's what results in Paul having to, to go to Rome. Lots of speed bumps, lots of, uh, side quests- Yeah ... uh, along the way.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, but Festus consults with King Agrippa, uh, who, who comes to Caesarea, and, uh, Paul is brought before Agrippa. You know, you'll love this guy. Bring, g- get the guy out here.

Dan Beecher Yes. Um, come- This is, this is our favorite prisoner. He is- Yeah ... wacky. You're gonna love him.

Dan McClellan Um, and then Paul defends himself before Agrippa, and then we have this famous thing where, uh, Paul, uh, is, you know, tells his story, tells of his conversion, uh, and, and goes on to preach. And then, uh, he gets Agrippa to say, uh, "You've, uh, you've almost convinced me to become a Christian."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So close, but no cigar there, Paul.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and, uh, and then, and Agrippa says to Festus, the end of Acts 26, uh, Agrippa kind of goes, "You know what? If this guy hadn't appealed to the emperor, we would've freed him."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So you, you get a little- At

Dan Beecher that point I was like, "Ah, you sucker."

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. So I, there, the, I, it certainly feels like there are elements of literary craftsmanship going on here- Mm ... where, uh, we get a little foreboding from a little Jesus. We, we get a little, um, kind of court intrigue with, uh, with all these things, and then we get a little, just missed the boat, um- Right ... I'm... We, we watched a movie the other day with my, with my kids and, uh, they were like, "I hate movies where there's a misunderstanding." And, like- You just want the misunderstanding to be clarified, and it's the very, very end of the movie where it's like, "D'oh, that's right."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, so, uh, so that happens here. Agrippa's like, "Well, yep, shouldn't have appealed to the emperor. We wanna let you go."

Dan Beecher "We wanna let him go."

Dan McClellan And then they start sailing for, for Rome, and then, and then they get shipwrecked on Malta-

Dan Beecher Whoa, spoiler alert

Dan McClellan ... which is one of the coolest places in, in the world. I love going to Malta. If you've, um, if you've never been, you definitely gotta check out the, uh, uh, Ìle Temples, and particularly the... You gotta go to Gozo. You gotta go to the underground temple. Uh, but-

Dan Beecher I hear they've got some good falcons. In Malta.

Dan McClellan Well, not, not live ones, but, uh-

Dan Beecher Oh, okay

Dan McClellan ... they, they also, um... Yeah, if you wanna, if you wanna go somewhere where, uh, you can try some horse meat, uh, that's part of the-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... uh, that's part of the cuisine there. So I've had-

Dan Beecher Sounds great.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, you know, it's not awful.

Dan Beecher No, no. I, I am, I... As far as I, you know, from what I've heard, uh, thanks to our current president, there's horse meat in our, uh- ... coming into our, our... Anyway. Uh, that's just, uh, the rumor that's going around. Anywho, uh, that is a lot of fun. Uh, but we're gonna close it out for this time. Thanks so much for joining us. If you would like to keep this show going, there's a couple ways you can do it. You can join here and become a member here on YouTube, and that is a way that you can, uh, you can get access to our, uh, lives that we're gonna... We haven't done one yet, but we're gonna start doing them. You got... We, what, oh, we have one scheduled.

Dan McClellan 27th.

Dan Beecher On the 27th. 27th. Yes. That is what it is. I'm glad you're, uh, quick on the ball with that. Uh, so, so sign up by then if you wanna be a part of that live, or you can become a patron over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma where you can, uh, get early and ad-free access to every, uh, every episode of the show. Members on here on YouTube get early access to the, to the episodes as well. Um, and also you can get, uh, you- our patrons-only content over on Patreon, uh, if you sign up at the right levels for that. Uh, thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing. Thanks to Sam Holdman for being our right-hand dude, and thank you all for t- joining us, and we'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.