Don't Get Cross With Me

Dan McClellan So when you go to the Trump rally and you see the people wheeling around their full cross, that is historically inaccurate, and they should know better.

Dan Beecher It's also symbolically inaccurate, but that's okay. That's a question for another time.

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher And I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things are good, man. Today, as of today, as we record- Mm-hmm ... a week and a half ago for all y'all, we won a Signal award today. Signal award.

Dan McClellan Yeah, we got the gold. There were a few golds in our category, but we also had the added distinction of winning the Listeners' Choice Award in our category of religion and spirituality.

Dan Beecher Yeah. That's you guys. You guys did that, so thanks.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Thanks to everyone who voted for us, and- Absolutely ... we won a major award. A major award.

Dan McClellan And we were talking about how we need to get... There are medals, well, trophies that- Wow ... that can be requested that we have to pay for. Because there are a lot of winners. I imagine they're like, "Can't be sending these out to everybody." So, anyway, hopefully, in the near future, for those of you who are watching the YouTube video, you will see these awards, these trophies in the background.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We're very fancy, you guys. And- I don't know if you know this, but we are fancy boys.

Dan McClellan And as of your hearing of this podcast, I will also hopefully successfully be on the other side of a dreaded procedure- ... that afflicts men of a certain age, specifically 45.

Dan Beecher Thank God you mentioned the colonoscopy, Dan. I think that's a very important thing for... But if you're watching on the YouTube, you will see Dan take swigs of a very bright yellow concoction, that is, I understand to be, a lemon-lime sports drink- Yes ... mixed with some stuff that...

Dan McClellan Well, we don't need to talk about what it is, but- I read these instructions again and again- ... and again and again and again. And then when I'm ready to do the thing, I look back, and I'm like, "I just want to double-check. Yes, it does say," "Dump an entire bottle of MiraLAX into this-" Yeah ... "bottle of Gatorade." That's seven doses of MiraLAX.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And I've got to down three of those.

Dan Beecher So, it's- So Dan's going to be clean as a whistle, everybody.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah.

Dan Beecher And that's good.

Dan McClellan There's going to be whistling going on, for sure. Afterwards, not before.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan No whistling at all before.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. No rolling the dice.

Dan Beecher It's a procedure that I, as an older man than you, already know. So anyway, those of you who are of middle age will relate. The rest of you have lots to look forward to. One of the things that you have to look forward to is the rest of our show- Oh, yeah ... which we promise will be not overburdened with colonoscopy talk.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher Although I can't make the same promise for- The occasional quip.

Dan McClellan The occasional quip, but yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Absolutely. We won't belabor the point.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan We won't belabor the point.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Our after party, the bonus content- ... for our patrons, I can't make any promises. We'll see. But we got a lot to talk about on this show- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan because today...

Dan Beecher So our astute listeners will remember that a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the Star of David- Mm ... and how that became the symbol of Judaism, and then of the nation of Israel, and blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah seems insensitive. Yeah, but- Et cetera ...

Dan McClellan we didn't...

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan We yada yada'd the rest of it.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah, exactly. So, one bit of feedback that we got was, "Hey, why don't we talk about the cross?" So our first segment is going to be about crucifixion and the symbol of the cross.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And then we are going to move on to a chapter and verse out of Ecclesiastes that's got some stuff to do with when... It's got a lot to do with a lot. But it might pertain to the abortion question. It might pertain- Yeah ... to a bunch of stuff. It might not. We're just going to have to see. We'll see.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's an odd little duck that we found swimming around in the- ... pond of our desperation for a topic to talk about. No, I actually made a video this morning where I briefly addressed it, and I was like, "That would be fun to talk about in-" Okay.

Dan Beecher There we go ...

Dan McClellan in a bit more detail.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Dan is constantly scooping our show on his- ... other social media channels. It's fine. I'm not mad about it at all.

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher Well, let's get on with History's Mysteries. And the mystery this week is crucifixion. Now, there's a lot of questions surrounding crucifixion.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Definitely, there's one crucifixion that is most famous- Yes ... and that is that of the guy next to Jesus. No, I'm just kidding. It's of Jesus.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher So let's briefly talk about the history of that- Yeah ... thing that they did, that method of execution that the Romans had.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher What it was, why did they do it?

Dan McClellan I don't know.

Dan Beecher It's such a weird thing to do.

Dan McClellan Yeah. A particularly brutal method of execution that around the time of Jesus probably was reserved for sedition, for insurrectionists, things like that.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan This wasn't you got caught stealing a loaf of bread at the market, then you get crucified.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It was for brigandry and but mainly for people who are challenging the state.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And because it is a way to hang you up and put you on display as- Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's meant to be an ignominious demise.

Dan McClellan Yes, absolutely. It's meant to be a spectacle. It's meant to be conspicuous- Yeah ... as well. And, it seems to start with the Romans. The Persians may have, in some way, inspired what was going on, but it's somewhat related to impalement.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And then there's impalement, and then there was something else that went on with the Greeks, it seems, where people would be clasped, chained to something, to just a board.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And then left out and exposed, so that animals would come and- Oh, gosh.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so, the crucifixion is perhaps an outgrowth of this.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But it's done in different ways, and this is what I think is fascinating. It's been a while, but I made a video a bit ago about why we think Jesus was crucified on a lowercase T-shaped instrument.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because there is a tradition that identifies as Christian that understands stauros, which is the Greek word that is so commonly translated cross. It could just be a pole.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So a stauros could be used to impale somebody, or perhaps their hands would be, in some way, affixed to the pole above their head together, whether nailed or lashed or whatever. And so, there are some folks who point out that the New Testament doesn't really indicate one way or another if Jesus was crucified on this T-shaped cross or on something else. And the earliest depictions we have of crucifixion, we actually have a couple of graffiti. That one dates to around 130-ish CE, and the other one dates to around 200 CE.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And the earlier one, it's called the Puteoli graffito, and it depicts some poor dude named Alcamilla who is up on top of a T-shaped instrument, and- A lowercase T.

Dan Beecher Lowercase.

Dan McClellan It seems to be, yeah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Now, the top, the vertical bar, doesn't extend significantly beyond the- Okay ... the crossbeam. The patibulum, if you're nasty.

Dan Beecher And I am.

Dan McClellan That's the Latin name for the crossbar.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But it definitely depicts this person with their arms outstretched on a T-shaped cross. But that's coming about 100 years after Jesus.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And it's definitely not Jesus on that cross. The next one from around 200 CE is Jesus, and this is the Alexamenos graffito, where this was scratched in the walls of a, well, it's probably a barracks where soldiers were stationed.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And they're making fun of some dude who's another soldier named Alexamenos because this name also occurs in another room elsewhere in the building.

Dan Beecher Wow. But yeah, it- Not a popular dude.

Dan McClellan Evidently, no. It was a pretty sick burn because it has him- ... in kind of a prayer posture in front of somebody who is on a cross, again, a lower shaped T cross, only with the head of an ass. And then there is an inscription that says, "Alexamenos worships his God."

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so it's kind of like, "Look at you worshiping your donkey-headed crucified God."

Dan Beecher Yeah, I think I remember us mentioning that on a previous episode.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Okay. So at very least, from that time, it seemed that crucifixion was a cross thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah. But we do have some indications that what is described in the New Testament is describing an upright beam and then your crossbeam, the patibulum. We can go back into, I think this is from around the 1st century. There's a text called the "Oneirocritica," which is basically dream interpretation, by some dude named Artemidorus. And there's a part where he talks about what happens if you dream about crucifixion.

Dan Beecher It says- Oh.

Dan McClellan So it says, "To be crucified is good for all who are sailing."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "For in fact, the crucifix is made from wood and nails just like a ship, and its mast is like a crucifix." And so, the thing to consider is that wood and nails means you're attaching something to something else.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan The crucifix itself is not just an upright beam.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And if we're attaching something with nails and it looks like the mast of a ship, what do a lot of ships have in this time period? An upright beam and a crossbeam that the sail hangs from.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It sounds like this person who, and I wish I could remember better when this dated to. It's either right around the time of Jesus or a century or two before it. But yeah, that seems to suggest that we've got a T-shaped cross. And we've got some depictions of people who have their arms outstretched and are lashed to a crossbeam, but they're not hanging, hung up on a big pole. They're standing on the ground, but the crossbeam has poles on each side.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So it's kind of like the stocks- Yeah ... only you're stood up and your arms are straight out in front of you. But there are some texts that talk about how the person would carry the cross, their stauros, to the place where it would be set up so that they're up there just kind of hanging there.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so the depiction of Jesus as having to carry his cross fits with some texts that we have in Greek as well as in Latin that talk about people being forced to carry their patibulum to the place of crucifixion. When you see the full cross, when you see these goofballs carrying a full cross with wheels on the end- ... so it's easier, that's not what it was like. It was just the crossbeam that they would- Okay ... that he would've carried.

Dan Beecher Oh, I see.

Dan McClellan Yes. So when you go to the Trump rally- ... and you see the people wheeling around their full cross, that is historically inaccurate and they should know better, and for a bunch of reasons they should know better.

Dan Beecher It's also symbolically inaccurate, but that's okay. That's a question for another time.

Dan McClellan Yes. And so yeah, I think scholars are pretty secure in the conclusion that, yeah, Jesus was probably crucified on a T-shaped cross. Additionally, you have Pilate puts the sign above his head- Mm ... that is supposed to read, "Jesus Christ, King of the Jews." It's supposed to be in Aramaic and in Latin and Greek. And you couldn't really have a place for that above Jesus' head if his arms are up above his head.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Particularly if you've got that whole thing written out in three different languages, it's a big sign.

Dan Beecher "Here. Jesus, hold this for us."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "We just need you to... Your hands are already up there. Will you just hold this sign?"

Dan McClellan Or they could've been like, "We could just nail the sign through his hands."

Dan Beecher Through the...

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You're already using a nail.

Dan McClellan You've got...

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We're getting darn close to blasphemy here. We're going to be offending people if we're not too careful. Well- Which we do anyway.

Dan McClellan Yeah. That's kind of our policy.

Dan Beecher It's true.

Dan McClellan It's the SOP. So the cross is already, by the end of the second, beginning of the third century CE, becoming something that is associated with Christianity. You don't take the time to inscribe a cross with Jesus with the head of an ass hanging on it if that's not immediately recognizable as, "Hey, that's that one dude that everybody worships."

Dan Beecher Yeah. And that's interesting because it does seem like the point of crucifixion was for it to be sort of deliberately shameful and public.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So it sounds like there was evidence that even early Christians were sort of taking that and sort of owning that symbol as something that was not necessarily something to be proud of, but something that martyred their guy.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It was a symbol of his martyrdom.

Dan McClellan Well, and it's a way to appropriate it to kind of flip the script on- Right.

Dan Beecher Yeah ...

Dan McClellan on the people who would understand it as shameful.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So rather than a symbol of humiliation or defeat or whatever, it becomes... And I think I read something. Tell me about this. I think I read something about early Judaism having a... If you were to be executed in shame, you would be hung from a tree?

Dan McClellan Oh, so there's a passage in Deuteronomy that talks about hanging criminals, but I think it says if the next day is the Sabbath, you've got to take him down before nightfall.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan Because cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And the word for tree in Hebrew, etz, can mean tree, but it can also just mean wood or something made out of wood.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So when you get into the New Testament, I think it's Paul who brings this up, but is using the Greek, which is also ambiguous. The word for tree can also just mean wooden thing or wood.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And so there's some ambiguity there regarding you squint at Jesus on a cross, and hey, it becomes a wooden thing. It becomes wood. It can overlap with this idea of being hung on a tree. So there is a degree to which the New Testament is like, "You thought it was a curse, but Sunday, Sunday, Sunday." "You can rent the whole seat, but you'll only need the edge." Because the symbol of defeat has been turned into the symbol of victory.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And there are other earlier symbols that seem to be more prominent than the cross in early Christianity. The fish, because the word in Greek for fish, ichthys, is an acronym For Jesus Christ, God's son, savior.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So ichthys is an acronym for that, and then the symbol of the fish does that. And then you could also draw a circle and then have some lines dividing up the circle to make it look like a loaf of bread. And you can trace the letters iota, he, or theta, excuse me, epsilon, and sigma- Okay ... to spell out ichthys. And then an anchor was a prominent symbol in early Christianity.

Dan Beecher Interesting. And then the chi rho monogram- Right ...

Dan McClellan which looks like the X with the big tall- With a P sort of standing proud.

Dan Beecher But it's actually a rho, which is the R sound in Greek, right?

Dan McClellan Yeah. And that would be the first two letters of Christos.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which the chi rho. So those were probably more prominent than the cross, but there is indication that people would trace a cross on their forehead when they're praying and stuff like that.

Dan Beecher Oh, interesting.

Dan McClellan So the cross is there, but we don't have really- It's in the mix of Christian symbols- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher but it's not the prominent one. When does it start to become... It is very strange to me that the instrument of this man's death- Mm-hmm ... becomes the symbol for the entire religion.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher It seems like that is the other guy's symbol. You know what I mean? Like that's the bad guy's symbol.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So how did it arise to such prominence? Do you have a sense of that?

Dan McClellan I think it probably has to do with Constantine and- Oh, okay ... because there's the famous legend of the Battle of Milvan Bridge, or Milvian Bridge. I am just pronouncing everything wrong today. Of Milvian Bridge where he's supposed to have seen a sign of a cross or the chi rho or both- Oh ... and who have heard the voice, "In this sign, conquer." And so that is what is supposed to have inspired his victory there, and then that leads to the Edict of Milan in 313 CE, which decriminalizes Christianity, and then the chi rho and the cross become symbols of imperial power.

Dan Beecher And- It makes sense to some extent that I'm thinking of it as the symbol of the bad guys. Well, who are the bad guys?

Dan McClellan Rome.

Dan Beecher You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher In this case, and then the bad guys embrace Christianity, and suddenly, yeah, suddenly their symbol, the one that's most closely associated with Rome in- Mm-hmm ... the Christian sort of narrative, becomes the symbol that they go with. That's really fascinating.

Dan McClellan Yeah. You have folks like Irenaeus and others talking about the symbolism of the cross as a sign of victory and things like this. And so imperial victory then going, "Aha," sign of the cross. It becomes kind of a different kind of symbol of victory, but something that is apropos for Christianity's marriage to imperial power and the use of symbolism to project that power, that- Yeah ... victory that the Roman Empire was so concerned to put on display for others. So I think that's probably what results in the popularity of the cross as a symbol for Christianity that eclipses the other stuff, the fish and all of that, until you had the invention of the car- I was going to say ... which allows you to create the bumper sticker- ... which allows you to put that costly signaling on your car until you then get feet and- Yeah.

Dan Beecher ...

Dan McClellan the Darwin fish.

Dan Beecher That fish grows feet and then suddenly- Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So I think that's probably what's going on with the use of that symbol. And yeah, it has a weird history within Christianity. You have some groups that don't use it. The tradition that you were getting out of around the time I was getting into it, or shortly before, Latter-day Saint tradition, does not use the cross- That's right ...

Dan Beecher anymore.

Dan McClellan There was a time in its history where the cross was an important symbol.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And there was a campaign to get rid of that.

Dan Beecher Interestingly, yeah. Well, I remember in church hearing people very proudly talk about why we don't use the cross and- Mm-hmm ... how that makes us actually better Christians than the other Christians who do use the symbol of Jesus's death for- Yeah ... his thing, and yeah, that was always a little weird to me.

Dan McClellan But- ...

Dan Beecher but sure, I'm the one making that argument now, so I suppose I get it.

Dan McClellan Well, and I think it reveals one of the issues with symbolism, is symbolism means whatever people think it means.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so if you want to change it, you can change it.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And I think it was probably President Hinckley, a Latter-day Saint president and prophet, who said, "Well, why don't you use the cross?" "Oh, well, we choose to focus on-" Jesus' life, Jesus as alive rather than- Right ... the method of his death. And so that's, as a contemporary rationalization, great. But Latter-day Saints started off using it.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan They've used it for many, many years. So it meant something different back then to them. And you can go-- I remember this is kind of a little off track, but when I was 18 or 19, I forget how old I was, I spent a summer in Germany, in Austria, in Slovakia, in Switzerland, traveling around with my brother and my grandmother, and she arranged for us to attend a high school in Vienna for a day.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Which was an unusual experience.

Dan Beecher It was- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan it was surreal to say the least. But there was one part where one of the students, they were like, "Yeah, let's ask him questions." And this is half going on in German and half going on in English because- Right ... my German was better back then, but it still wasn't all that great. They were like, "What's different?"

Dan Beecher I'm guessing their English was fine. Their English was fine, yeah.

Dan McClellan Somebody asked, "What are differences between the high school that you went to and this school?" And I was like, "Well, the crucifix on the wall is one, but also the Playboy calendar over here is a-- There was a calendar that had lingerie models in it hanging on the opposite wall. I was like, "Both of these are just alien to me."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But yeah, that was a fun experience. Gym was weird because if I recall, we went and played tennis on top of a building.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan They had tennis courts built on top of a building in Vienna.

Dan Beecher Try not to hit the balls too far afield.

Dan McClellan They had big nets to make sure that- Oh, okay ... we didn't. But yeah, my brother and I, that's all we wanted to do, just be foop. Just see who could hit one the furthest, get to the cathedral or something. But there's an interesting thing about the crucifix because it's not just the cross, it's the cross with Jesus hanging on it, and it is- Right ... used as an icon. It is used as something that is involved in worship.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Which these days on Twitter, the Protestants are all in a huff about, well, mainly the evangelicals, they're all in a huff about Catholicism. And yeah, that's one of the main things that they talk about, the iconic use of the crucifix. And there are some people who will compare it to a story in the Book of Numbers where there are these fiery serpents that bite a bunch of Israelites and they're dying off.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And then God tells Moses, "Take a pole- Right ... and then put a bronze serpent on the pole, and everybody who-" You know, one of those bronze serpents that you have lying around. Yeah, you got laying around.

Dan Beecher Just grab one of those.

Dan McClellan The junk drawer is full of the animal kingdom in bronze.

Dan Beecher So sweet.

Dan McClellan So just pick- Elephant ... serpent, serpent.

Dan Beecher Lizard.

Dan McClellan That's a lizard, yeah.

Dan Beecher Oh, serpent. Okay, here we go.

Dan McClellan There's a serpent, okay. And put it on the pole, and then whoever looks at it will be healed.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this is functioning as a divine image because it's basically manifesting the power, the presence, the authority, the agency of the deity in this instance, in order to heal. And then that is referred to as Nehushtan, and that gets placed in the temple, and it becomes an object of worship. And so once you get to Josiah-- No, I'm sorry, not Josiah, Hezekiah. You get to Hezekiah, and he's like, "We can't have any more of this worshiping Nehushtan." So they bring it out of the temple and destroy it.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan But there are a lot of folks who will use that story as kind of the type, the template, the inspiration for the idea of Jesus on the cross, look to Jesus on the cross. And so if you have the actual physical example of that, that makes it much more useful. And we've talked a little bit before about using the Bible as an icon.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Somebody's always going to whine about it, but if that helps them focus their faith, if that ties what they believe into the macro narrative that we find laid out in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament, if that ties the room together, as the great poet once said, I don't see any reason to get upset about that. So- Yeah, it has- ... that's how it's functioning. It has precedence in scripture. And using material media is something that goes on in the New Testament as well.

Dan Beecher It's not really different from the- Well, and it's not like we don't see evangelicals praying towards images of Jesus. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We do see that. We see that all the time.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Or genuflecting or bowing or something.

Dan McClellan Yeah. There will be a cross- Kneeling ... behind them or something like that.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. But yeah, it makes sense to me that to use a symbol to sort of focus yourself, and so yeah, when you see you go into a Catholic cathedral or whatever, and somebody's looking up at an image of Jesus on the cross- Mm-hmm ... and praying, yeah, that makes sense.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's just a place to put your focus.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And as we've discussed before, it's not much different from somebody talking to a headstone in a cemetery- Right ... as if they're talking with their deceased loved one. It is intuitive. It is natural. It's how human cognition works. So lay off.

Dan Beecher And if you ask them It's not like they're going to say that they expect that thing to climb off the wall and bless them or whatever. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher They know that that's not the guy.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's just the image. That's just the symbol.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, there you go. It's one of, the cross, one of history's mysteries explained, revealed here on the show.

Dan McClellan Well, and there are books and books and books more that could be written on the history and the usage of that symbol, but- I'm sure ... hopefully that was a good cursory overview of- Yes, exactly ... why we think it looked the way it did and how it's been used.

Dan Beecher All right. Let's move on to our chapter and verse. And this week's lesson is from Ecclesiastes chapter 11.

Dan McClellan Chapter 11. Yeah, this is an odd one. This is not one that people are going to be like, "Oh, yeah, my pastor preached about that last week."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Nobody's pastor has ever preached about this passage.

Dan Beecher About this.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So- I don't even know that I know anything about Ecclesiastes. I don't even know what the word Ecclesiastes means. Well, the Hebrew is Qohelet, so that should clear things up for you, but- Thank you for doing that because I was unclear, and now it's all come clear to me.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So yes, Ecclesiastes is where we get the wonderful song, "To everything turn, turn, turn, there is a season."

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And I'm pretty sure I've butchered those lyrics, but it was probably written in... It's attributed, I think it's attributed to Solomon, which it obviously isn't- Right ... actually written by Solomon. But it is probably written in the 3rd century BCE. So it was probably written in the Hellenistic period.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan You see some, there are some loanwords from Aramaic, a couple that seem to be Greek, and it is addressing some more Greek themes. But it is, chapter 11 verse 5 is just talking about the mysteries of God.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan And verse 5 says, I'm going to read it in a few different translations. First in the King James Version.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan The Paul's version. "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child, even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan You don't know that. You don't know these things.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan You don't know what's going on. What is the way of the spirit?

Dan Beecher I'm pretty sure that that was a kung fu movie, wasn't it? The Way of the Spirit?

Dan McClellan Well, it is derech haRuach in Hebrew, so The Way of the Spirit, yeah. That was, oh, I'm trying to remember the name of the kung fu movies from Bob's Burgers, and I totally blanked on it.

Dan Beecher The Hawk and Chick movies?

Dan McClellan Hawk and Chick, yes. And the Seaweed Monster. So that's a pretty traditional translation of that. However, the first two clauses could also be put together into one clause.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And this is what the NRSVUE does, because it says, "Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything."

Dan Beecher That is very different.

Dan McClellan Very different. Yeah, and it all depends on whether or not you want to put a comma or a semicolon or an em dash if you're nasty. I get told all the time, people will be like, "Hey, just be careful using the em dash because people think you're using AI." It's like, "Screw AI. I've been using an em dash- Look ... since the internet started. I will not have this."

Dan Beecher I am an old-school em dasher, and that Johnny-come-lately- ... ChatGPT can go em dash itself away.

Dan McClellan Good recovery. Way to stick the landing there.

Dan Beecher Thank you.

Dan McClellan But this is an interesting passage because I've talked a lot in the past about how the mainstream Jewish position on ensoulment, on fetal personhood- Yeah ... is that the fetus doesn't become a person until it draws its first breath, until birth, basically.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But that's not entirely accurate for the entire Hebrew Bible, because in Greco-Roman period Judaism, there was influence from Greek philosophy toward this Aristotelian notion of ensoulment, where the soul entered the body once the fetus had become fully developed.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the evidence of that was the quickening, where the mother can feel the fetus moving independently in her womb. And so if we take the NRSVUE's reading, "Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother's womb," would suggest this is a reference to the quickening- Right ... where the fetus moving independently is compared to breath coming to its bones. And so breath is being used synonymous for life here.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's coming to life, meaning breath is coming to its bones. And so I think it's an interesting intersection of the preexisting view that breath is the fundamental constituent element of life, meeting the new- Greek philosophically influenced view that the quickening is an indication of life. And so we're talking about the quickening as breath coming to the bones in the mother's womb. If that's how this passage is to be interpreted, I think that would be one of the only occurrences in all the Hebrew Bible of a position on fetal personhood that differs from the traditional Jewish perspective that- Yeah ... the human life begins at birth, at the drawing of the first breath.

Dan Beecher Right. Can I just add an interesting wrinkle to the mix?

Dan McClellan Wrinkle it.

Dan Beecher Because I, too, looked at multiple different translations.

Dan McClellan Okay. NIV, which I would expect- Oh, don't bring up the NIV.

Dan Beecher Hang on.

Dan McClellan Just kidding.

Dan Beecher Go ahead. Hang on with me. Hang with me here, because I would expect NIV, if there is an option to signal fetal personhood- Yeah ... I would expect NIV to run toward that option.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher But they don't.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher NIV instead has it as, "As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And that's fascinating. That's about as far... A, does not mention spirit. B, does not mention breath.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But makes it a totally different thing unrelated to the fetus thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Just like all we are is dust in the wind, man.

Dan McClellan Until you can paint with all the colors of the wind- ... you do not know God's ways. So the word, you said they rendered wind?

Dan Beecher Yeah. It says, "As you do not know the path of the wind."

Dan McClellan Yeah. So that's ruach, which fundamentally it refers to wind or breath.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And spirit was conceptualized as kind of related to breath, wind, because you can't see it, but- Right ... it's moving around. And so you have all those different words used to refer to spirit, breath, wind. But what's interesting is it says, "The path of ha-ruach," which means the spirit.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan So it could be the spirit of God- Mm ... like a fire is burning. It could be a reference to that, or it could just be the spirit that enters the fetus's body.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And makes the bones come to life. Because when we go to Ezekiel 37, the Valley of Dry Bones, it's usually translated breath. I'm almost positive it's ruach there, but it's usually translated when the breath enters the bones. But it could be the spirit. Let me see what NRSVUE says here. In Ezekiel 37:9, "Then he said to me, 'Prophesy to the breath. Prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath: Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.'" So the Valley of Dry Bones is going to have sinew and muscle and flesh go accrete to it. And then the ruach, and is that ruach? Yeah, that's ha-ruach, is going to enliven things.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But yeah, they go with breath there in the NRSVUE. And I imagine, yeah, NET says breath. KJV says breath. I imagine your dirty little NIV is going to say breath as well. But for some reason, I don't have the NIV in my Accordance.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan They probably were like, "Yeah, don't."

Dan Beecher Don't.

Dan McClellan "We know better than to..." Yeah, you don't want to.

Dan Beecher It's so interesting. We talk constantly about how translation makes... The task of translation and the task of interpretation, and it's just interesting to me because every now and then, you and I will see someone in a comment section or someone online talking about how, "I'm the real kind of Christian. I don't interpret the Bible." "I just believe the Bible."

Dan McClellan Yeah. Just listen to what it says.

Dan Beecher And it's like when there are three totally valid interpretations or totally understandable reasons why you would say spirit, wind, breath.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And those can mean three wildly different things.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Is it the way of the spirit, or is how the breath comes into the bones in your mother's womb? It just seems like it's so obvious. And what's really funny is that most of those people who are like, "I don't believe in interpreting the Bible"- Yeah ... they're KJV people, straight down the line. They're hardcore KJV. So to tell them, "Oh, well, the NRSVUE would give you some ammo in the abortion fight." That's an interesting thing to tell them.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But they're KJV people, they can't.

Dan McClellan Yeah. There, it's funny because every now and then you'll see somebody's preaching, somebody's making a TikTok video or something like that, and they will furtively switch translations.

Dan Beecher Ah.

Dan McClellan And it's fun to see them getting called out for that.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah, because they'll realize that, "Oh, this translation over here is good for what I'm saying in this part of the verse, but the next verse, I need to be in this other translation over here." So sometimes they will just very quietly switch translations for precisely that reason. But yeah, and with the ruach, that goes all the way back to Genesis 1. How do you translate Genesis 1:2, where you've got the ruach Elohim merachefet al-pnei hamayim, which in the King James version is, "The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." But that could be a divine wind.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan It could be God's breath. It could be the spirit of God. It could be interpreted in a variety of different ways.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And the NRSVUE says, "While a wind from God swept over the face of the waters."

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan Yeah, translation makes a big difference. And when folks who do not understand the complexities of translation philosophy, or even of picking your source text. How did you come up with the source text you're using? Because when you look at Ecclesiastes 5, or excuse me, Ecclesiastes 11:5- 11, yeah ... some of the cantillation marks might indicate that, might push you in the direction of one interpretation over and against another. Whereas if you ignore the cantillation marks, you might be led in the direction of a different interpretation. So all those decisions that we make- Cantillation marks meaning the diacritics in the Hebrew?

Dan Beecher Is that what we're talking- Yeah.

Dan McClellan Okay. So the Hebrew, the Masoretic Text, it has the vowels. Those are dots and dashes that are written above and below. And then you have the dagesh, which is a dot that's put in the middle of characters. But then you also have, in the Masoretic tradition, what are called cantillation marks usually. And these are indications of how singers are going to intone.

Dan Beecher Oh, right.

Dan McClellan And also- Cantors.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And they also associate words together.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Like you'll see disjunctive or conjunctive marks indicating- Sure ... we're taking this word with the next one and stuff like that. So that can influence how one interprets it as well.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And then you might go look at the Septuagint. What does the Septuagint have to say here? That would be as close as we can get to an ancient commentary, a third or second century BCE commentary on the Hebrew.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So usually we can understand this is how, at least whoever translated this, understood this text in the third or second century BCE, which gets us a little closer to when it was originally written, or at least Ecclesiastes, maybe it was the dude's neighbor- Yeah ... who translated it. Because Ecclesiastes and Daniel are probably the two latest texts- Right ... in the entire Hebrew Bible. Ecclesiastes probably third century, Daniel middle of the second century. But I think it is fascinating to see, maybe, again, depending on how you translate it- Uh-huh ... a little window into this Greco-Roman influence on Jewish understandings of ensoulment. And then the Septuagint translation of Exodus 21 indicates that, and Philo's discussion of ensoulment indicates that. So I think it's just another interesting piece of the puzzle.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I love that. I think that that's really fascinating.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, friends, thank you for joining us. If you would like to become a part of getting this show off the ground every week, there are a couple ways you can do that. You can go to Apple, however you're listening to us, if it's Apple Podcast, if it's Spotify, if it's whatever, maybe it has a place for you to give us five stars. That'd be great. Remember even if you think we're a four-star show, you have to give us five because you're canceling out people who hate us and give us one star without even listening to the show. So give us that extra star just for the cancellation thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And that does happen. That even happened on my book. Somebody gave me a one-star review on Goodreads or something.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And somebody was like, "What didn't you like about it?" And they responded, "I don't know. I didn't read it."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So yeah.

Dan Beecher This is what happens. This is what- Yes ... we're up against, people. So it's nice if you can give us five stars. We appreciate that. Also, if you've got a little bit of coin jingling around in the pockets and you think, "Maybe I can give that to the boys," go ahead and go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma, where you can get access to an ad-free version of every show. You can get access to the after party at the correct level, and that gives you bonus content every week that we like to do. And we're looking into doing some meetups with some people.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher We're going to see what happens.

Dan McClellan Maybe a Discord or something like that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Who knows? You won't see me on the Discord because I don't understand that, and I hate it. So I'm a grumpy old man, and I'm not going to do it. Anyway, thank you all so much for joining us, and thanks to Roger Gowdy for editing, and we'll talk to you again next week.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.