Does the Bible Actually Condemn Masturbation?

Dan Beecher When you suggested that we would do masturbation on the show. Mm-hmm. Uh, no, not do masturbation on the show. But rather discuss the concept, uh, of masturbation. Yeah, look for the Data Over Dogma OnlyFans coming soon. All right. Well, let's move on to Data After Dark. All right, Dan. Uh, the first thing that I thought of when we, when we, you know, when you suggested that we would do masturbation on the show.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Uh, no, not do masturbation- on the show, but rather discuss the concept, uh, of masturbation. Yeah, look for the Data O- the, the Data Over Dogma Only Fans coming soon. But it's not up yet, so, uh, so we'll, we'll, we'll just talk about the concept. Um, and of course my brain went immediately to Onan and Genesis 38. Um, and I don't-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher and, and I went and revisited that story. And, you know, we've talked about Onan before on the show. It's not about masturbation.

Dan McClellan No. No, it's not. There-

Dan Beecher That's not the problem

Dan McClellan although it is, I think there, somebody said there are some languages where, uh, um, Onan has become a euphemism or the, the term to refer to masturbation. Um-

Dan Beecher Well, yeah, Onanism is-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher masturbation in sort of the parlance of our time.

Dan McClellan Um, he fixes the cable. Uh, anyway, uh, no, the... And yeah, the story is just not about that. The, and it has been used as a, as a, uh, a passage that is, is thought to prohibit coitus interruptus-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan to prohibit, uh, any kind of birth control, and to prohibit masturbation. It's just not what the discussion is about.

Dan Beecher Yeah, it's nothin', it's none of those things.

Dan McClellan There, yeah.

Dan Beecher We talked about levirate marriage and-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher his duty and the fact-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher that he was not fulfilling-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher his duty as a, as a levirate, uh, s- husband to his brother's wife.

Dan McClellan Yeah. When, when God was like, "I'm gonna go peek in on Onan, making sure everything's going okay there," and going, "Oh, I saw that," the whole problem was that he refused to give his new wife, his late brother's widow, a child.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan That's the problem.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Cut and dry. And also, it's not masturbation to have sex with your wife.

Dan Beecher Correct.

Dan McClellan I mean, yeah, like, I don't, I'm, I'm... Somebody has to have looked into this or discussed the the, the categories here.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan But I'm sure that, um, completion outside of the spouse is, uh, I'm not sure that even qualifies, so.

Dan Beecher The pull-out method, no.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's generally not considered masturbatory.

Dan McClellan Right. So, so yeah, it's irrelevant. When it comes to what the Bible thinks about masturbation, that is irrelevant. And in my opinion, the Bible never addresses it. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that, that can plausibly be argued to be talking about self-pleasure, and, and I think there are reasons for that. But one passage that comes up, I, I think in the, in the past I've made a video or two where I've talked a bit about this. One passage that comes up is Matthew 5:30.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And, uh, it, it says, "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, that came right after the, uh, uh-

Dan McClellan A- after Onan?

Dan Beecher The one... If y- if your eye, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher it, it, I mean, it, that is the, the part where it's talking about, uh, you know, if you have, if you lusted after a woman-

Dan McClellan Look at a woman or lust after, yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher then, then you've committed adultery in your heart-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher which I think is a problematic theology anyway.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah, and, and, you know, somebody, if they really wanna parse that, they, they might be able to be like, look, I mean- You're usually thinking about something.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan When, when you've, when, when you're trying to get that engine revving, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan you, you're looking at something or you're thinking about something. But either way-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan you're doing what is, uh, being, uh, referenced there. Maybe it's not your right hand. Maybe you're left-handed.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Maybe, maybe you have some kind of supplementation that, um-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan that you're using. Uh, our, our good vice president is known to- uh, patronize, uh, furniture, uh, from what I've- from what I have heard. But, uh- Allegedly.

Dan Beecher Allegedly.

Dan McClellan Allegedly, yeah. But it, it still counts, I think, if, uh, if we wanna read it that way.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan I don't think the author was trying to say that. Yes, this is, this is, uh, buried in a context of, um, sex, but it is primarily with a woman. And, and this brings up, uh, a point about all this. When we look at what kinds of sexual activities are prohibited throughout the Bible, overwhelmingly they have to do with prohibited unions.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan What types of people are not allowed to get together. And I think the reason that masturbation didn't even qualify, and is not even brought up, is because we tend to think of, of sex as, as anything that, um, you know, has the goal of trying to achieve orgasm or arousal or something like that. Mm-hmm. They didn't think about it that way in the ancient world.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Like, sex was, uh, it over- I think, I think one of the, the things that was always understood to be involved was a penis. Have to have a penis for sex.

Dan Beecher Okay. Right.

Dan McClellan And I would s-

Dan Beecher Which, which we now know that doesn't have to be involved.

Dan McClellan No, it doesn't need to be in the room. But, um, the... You know, when we look at Le- Leviticus 18:20 and 20 verse 13, where we have the prohibition on a man taking the insertive role in an act of male same-sex intercourse, the very next thing that is addressed is bestiality, and the authors say women are also prohibited from this. Mm. But that doesn't say anything about women when it comes to the same-sex stuff. Right. Um, and so I think, I think the reason, there, there are a lot of scholars who had talked about this, is that if there's no penis involved, then it doesn't even count as sex. And so lesbian, uh, s- female same-sex intercourse doesn't even count, so isn't even a concern, at least for the Hebrew Bible worldview. And so if it's, you know, I think if it's one person taking care of themselves, you don't have any kind of penetration of, of any part of anyone else's body, so it probably similarly was just not considered sex. Mm. And so didn't even qualify for concern. Uh, I, I think that's probably what's going on there. There, there is an argument that has been made that the concern with same-sex intercourse was that it was wasting seed. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, I was gonna get to that, because- Yeah there's a lot. I was shocked when I dove into this- how much I found about, like, purity of, like, like, how you, how you are made impure by an ejaculation. Like, how much impurity and how, how many rules there are-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher surrounding s- this, you know, the, the, the discharge of seed.

Dan McClellan Yes. And that, the, the only thing that we get in Leviticus is, is a nocturnal emission, which is, uh, at, at least in terms of, uh... Yeah, there's, there's, uh, impurity associated with discharge, just like there's impurity associated with, um, with, uh, a woman's menstrual cycle.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, but you do have the, the references to a nocturnal emission, which is something where you're not even cognizant of, of what's going on. That's not something going on intentionally. Yeah. Unless you have- And that- unless you have an admirable grip on your- uh, you know, lucid dreaming-

Dan Beecher Right, yeah, exactly

Dan McClellan in which case, congratulations. But, um-

Dan Beecher That sounds amazing.

Dan McClellan But yeah. And then, and then it talks about, um, impurities associated with that. But that's not a prohibition on the act.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan And so you can't really read masturbation into that and say therefore-

Dan Beecher Well-

Dan McClellan masturbation would be considered unclean or prohibited-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan uh, when, when that's clearly not what's going on.

Dan Beecher Well, and when... You know, I'm looking at Leviticus 15, and it's saying, uh, "When any man has a discharge from his member- Mm his discharge makes him unclean." But that includes in the marriage bed. You know what I mean?

Dan McClellan Right. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, that includes any kind of thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And so, and obviously sex i- within a, a marital context is not going to be prohibited or, or sinful. So it, so yeah, I mean, it, the fact that, that there is ritual un- impurity or uncleanness doesn't denote sin.

Dan McClellan Right. And, and that's an, a very important point to make about impurity. The ritual impurity is, um, does not impute wrongdoing. It's, it's just this is a state- Yeah that's, uh, that requires specific ritual act to, um, to resolve. Uh, and so yeah, there's no prohibition, uh, involved there. And, and people have, uh, scholars have pointed out when it, when getting back to the, the same-sex intercourse thing, if the issue was the wasting of, of seed and potential progeny, we would expect masturbation to be quite explicitly prohibited.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Because that, uh, could ostensibly be one of, you know, the most wasteful- uh, activities that-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan an, an Israelite man could engage in when it comes to potential progeny. Uh, so you would expect that to be prohibited, and there's... It is not even addressed, which is why I think the waste- wasting seed argument doesn't really, uh, doesn't really obtain when it comes to the prohibitions on same-sex intercourse.

Dan Beecher That's interesting, because I have read, like, what Aristotle said about semen, and what a bunch of... You know, the ancient world, there were lots of different theories about what semen was and, you know, what it, what, what it purported. You know, a lot of times-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher it was, it was l- vitality. It was life force-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher or whatever.

Dan McClellan Oh, my gosh.

Dan Beecher And that's-

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh. You-

Dan Beecher That's a deeply problematic view on... I mean, get over yourself, dude.

Dan McClellan Oh, it still goes on today.

Dan Beecher I know.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I, uh, if you've seen, uh, oh, what's, uh, uh, uh- Dr. Strangelove? Dr. Strangelove.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah, you know that there's still people-

Dan McClellan I deny them my essence.

Dan Beecher Uh, what-

Dan McClellan Oh, I saw a vid- I saw a video today, just this morning.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Somebody, somebody sent it to me, and it was this guy who was talking about... Here's his thing. His idea was, "Do not cast pearls before swine." He was like, "In s- uh, ancient Aramaic, the word pearl was used as a metaphor for semen." So that pa- And, and he was like, so me- And, and it was so funny. His video starts off... I, I can't remember exactly what it says. I've gotta do a response to this video. But his video starts off with something about how your dick matters. That's how the video started off.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan And I was like, "I'm in."

Dan Beecher Are you kidding me?

Dan McClellan "I'm hooked. I'm locked in. Tell me why." And, um, but he s- the, he went on to argue that, "Do not cast your pearls before swine," is, "Do not cast your seed before unworthy, uh, partners or things." And, and he was just-

Dan Beecher Oh, I

Dan McClellan really,

Dan Beecher I was really hoping it was, "Don't masturbate on pigs," but okay, fine.

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh. Now you're making me... What's the show, Black Mirror?

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan Um, I saw exactly one episode of that, and it was that episode.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan And I was like, "Pass." Um-

Dan Beecher I'm d- I'm done.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher This is over.

Dan McClellan But, uh, no, he, he was like, "Don't cast your pearls before digital swine"-

Dan Beecher Oh, my gosh

Dan McClellan was where he was going with it. But, um- But yeah, that's, that's, uh... And, and it's, uh, and the word is, uh, uh, margali, margani. Like, there are a bunch of different ways it's, it's, uh, spelled in, in Aramaic, and I was looking at everything I could find on how this was used metaphorically in the ancient world. And the closest anyone ever got to what he was saying was that, as a, a pearl is something precious, and therefore it was used metaphorically to refer to precious things, which usually meant good ideas, precious thoughts, the gospel. Virginity was the closest anyone ever got to, um, something related to this guy's semen. Um, but- But yeah, uh, obviously the, the... And, and he w- he went through the whole, "This is your vitality. This is your power. This is your manliness. This is, uh, your essence, and, and, you know, don't waste it. And they can rob you of it," and all this kind of stuff, and it's just laughably, laughably bad. I've gotta do a response to that video, but-

Dan Beecher Yeah, it's so funny how... I mean, I get it in the sense that it, it feels good to lionize and make yourself seem cool and big-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher and make... and so important.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And for the, and for millennia, women were considered vessels-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher and this emission from men was considered the life force.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And so the man was the one who respons- who was responsible for this other human being placed into this vessel.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And I think it was a real blow to a lot of people when we finally, shockingly recently-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher figured out, oh, she contributes half. He contributes half. It's a 50/50 split.

Dan McClellan Well, and, and the overwhelming majority of it goes on in her body. Her body is especially-

Dan Beecher All of it goes on in her... Yeah, exactly.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, all of the important moments go on in her body.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And actually, you know, sh- her stuff, yeah. It's, it, but it's so funny how the ancient world especially, you know, if you ever wanna have some fun, look up what a homunculus was in the ancient world. But- But- But yeah, it's-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher it's just such a, it, it's so, it's such an, an aggrandizement of, of the male thing-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher when the female thing is ju- L- when A, the male thing is just, it's just goo. It's not th-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher like, it's not magic.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's-

Dan McClellan Your, your body's gonna, um, expel it into your sheets if, if you're not doing it anyway, so-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan it's not, it's not, uh, anything all that special. And so if you, if you really want there to be a verse about masturbation in the Bible, uh, just sign off on that guy's asinine theory about what pearls are- are representing. Um, but yeah, other than that, I think, I, I don't think there's anything in there. Now, I, I will say this, though. Um, in the New Testament, in Paul, in Matthew-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan you do get the sense that sexual desire is something that is, uh, you know, you're better off without it. You, you exercise discipline, overcome the, these urges because they're the, you know, they're the artifacts of, they're the baser urges of, of living in a fleshly body, and we're trying to transcend the, the flesh. Uh, it's a, a very kind of middle platonic view of the function of sex. Um, and so I think someone like a Paul or an author of Matthew would be like, "Yeah, maybe put the stroke books away." "Maybe that's not a good idea 'cause all it's doing is, is satisfying those baser urges."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So I think there's a ma- there's a, there's a mace to cake. No, there's a case to make. Um, the dyslexia bubbles to the surface every now and then. If that, if that counts as dyslexia. But, um, there's a case to make that those authors, if you asked them about masturbation, would've been like, "Ew, no."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But, um, at the same time, there's a case to make that when it came to what you were doing with your own self in your own shower, uh, that it was nobody else's business but your own. So-

Dan Beecher Well, and for every bit of sort of Pauline prudishness-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher you also have to contend with the fact that Song of Songs made it into the, made the final cut.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher You know what I mean? Like-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher like, like sexuality is not a decided thing, I don't think biblically.

Dan McClellan No. Well, and, and a lot of the, the Paul- Pauline prudishness and, and the author of the Gospel of Matthew saying some, uh, make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, like, all of that is reflecting the influence of Greco-Roman convention and philosophy. Like, when without that influence, yeah, we're, we're definitely treating sex as something natural, uh, or at least more so.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Uh, you know, um, Judaism had its own, uh... Before Judaism, I would say Judaism doesn't exist prior to, uh, the Greco-Roman period, but, um, Judean and ancient Israelite and Judahite thought didn't really treat sex as, as something that was that sacrosanct. It was really relationships that were considered the most important thing, and a lot of those relationships were related to property rights, which is why women were expected to be virgins when they got married. Men, not so, not so much.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan It didn't really matter. Like, the, the standards were different because there were kind of social contracts that were, uh, that were at play here, and the values and standards surrounding sex reflected, uh, those, those social contracts and, and values and things like that. So, uh, which is, yeah, I think why masturbation probably wasn't a big deal for anyone in, uh, prior to Greco-Roman period Judaism because it just didn't matter.

Dan Beecher Well, I wish someone had told 12-year-old me that- because I gotta say, uh, I, that is not the messaging that I received.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's, and that's part of the, the, the 12-year-old you was not a pre-Greco-Roman Judean. Um, you're a 20th century, uh, not as late 20th century as me, but a late 20th century child in America.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan We're, we're looking back through countless interpretive lenses that have been shellacked over the top of those ancient, uh, Judean ideologies, and that, I think, goes to show just how much we're negotiating with everything. When you've got the, the pre-Greek philosophical ideas and the Greek philosophical ideas in the Bible, which one takes precedence?

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Eh, you gotta, you gotta figure out one of them's gonna win out over the other. And then-

Dan Beecher It's whichever, it's whichever one makes a little kid feel real, real bad-

Dan McClellan Yeah, the-

Dan Beecher is, is, I feel like what's happening

Dan McClellan Yeah, the rhetorical utility, the utility of the dogma to your boundary maintenance, to your identity politics, is usually going to be the deciding factor in which part of the Bible gets to be in charge and which part has to be reinterpreted.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so I, I think that's what's going on in, you know, high-demand religions, in those religious traditions that have very, very firm boundaries and where most of what they're doing is curating those boundaries. And Mormonism, in a lot of ways, qualifies as one of those kinds of religions. Yeah, every opportunity you get to try to draw up a costly signal is, is going to be exploited. And so for that reason, for a long time, masturbation has been a just straight no-no. Now, when you look in early Mormonism, nobody seems to care. Nobody's talking about it.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Nobody's telling their kids, "Hey, stop touching that." Um, it's really in the 20th century, I think, that it, that it, uh, becomes very acute, reaches a, a climax- so to speak. My apologies. Um-

Dan Beecher God-

Dan McClellan But-

Dan Beecher God damn it. All right.

Dan McClellan But, but I think in, in recent years, you've seen, um, a, a pulling back-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan a pulling out, so to speak. Again, my apologies. Um-

Dan Beecher An onanism, if you will

Dan McClellan related to the emphasis on this kind of stuff. And, and I-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan and I hope it's because people are realizing it's unhealthy, it's harmful. Uh, it's not a healthy way to think about your body and-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan about sex. And, uh, you know, we have stories of people who've taken their own lives, children who have taken their own lives because they couldn't stop doing this thing that their church leaders and their families had convinced them made them as bad as a murderer.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Or convinced them that they would be better off dead.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and that's so phenomenally stupid. Um, and-

Dan Beecher It's pretty rough.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It's pretty rough to, to, to put that on anybody. But a kid-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher especially is, uh, yeah, is ill-equipped- To deal with that kind that kind... And ill-equipped to not do the... Let me tell you something.

Dan McClellan Ill-equipped to not do what you're equipped to do. As someone,

Dan Beecher as someone who went through, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, puberty, that was, uh, I wa- I, I was not gonna not do it. That, that's just- I mean, I tried. I tried for, real, real hard, but that's a losing battle-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher uh, at least for me. So there you go. All right. Well, uh, I, I, I'm glad to hear that our conclusion is that it's, the, that the Bible is s- at least neutral on the, on the topic.

Dan McClellan Silence on it, yeah. Yeah. Um, to, uh, it's certainly not condemnatory.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, so-

Dan Beecher Don't, don't make, don't go out and make kids feel bad, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher or, or, or adults. Don't make anybody feel bad about this one. All right. Well, if you would like to become a part of, uh, making this show go, you can head over to, uh, patreon.com/dataoverdogma- which is where you can sign up and give us a little bit of your money, and in return you'll get access to an ad-free early version of every episode as well as, uh, you can get access to the after/before party, which is bonus content that Dan and I do every single week. Uh, and it, we, you know, you can ask us your questions. You're likely to get an answer, so that's, uh, that's probably the only way that you're likely to get an answer from us. We're terrible in every other way. So, so that's, that's your best bet right there. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show. Thanks for Sa- to Sam for being our right-hand man, and we will talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.