Dismantling Martyrdom Apologetics

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Uh, things are fun. I don't know. We're gonna have some fun today. I- Yeah ... I'm, I, these apostles, man, they're dropping like flies. And, uh, and we gotta talk about it.

Dan McClellan That we do.

Dan Beecher Uh, so yeah, this week we're gonna do a What's That, and it's going to be, uh, the, the deaths of the apostles.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, this has been-

Dan McClellan Apostolic expirations.

Dan Beecher There you go.

Dan McClellan Or something like that. I

Dan Beecher like it. I like.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher I like. Uh, now, there is something, this, these deaths that we are going to discuss are used in, uh, apologetics sometimes.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes.

Dan Beecher Talk about how that, how that has, uh, played out a little bit.

Dan McClellan So there's a, there's an argument that is made among apologists who are trying to defend the historicity of the resurrection, that the, uh, 12 apostles, the, the original disciples of Jesus following the death and then ostensible resurrection of Jesus, they all went on to be these remarkable champions of, uh, the Christian message, going so far as to be martyred as a result of their message. And the argument goes, "Nobody dies for a lie."

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan In other words, they must have seen the resurrected Jesus. They very clearly did not just collude on making up this story of a resurrection, and there are a couple of different problems with this. And one of the biggest ones is the fact that, uh, this is kind of a dichotomous way to, to understand what happened to the disciples.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because the only two options are not either Jesus actually resurrected or they all maliciously colluded to make up a story they all knew wasn't true.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, you know, there's a lot of gray in between those two conclusions where people have heard about this, have not experienced it themselves, but have passed on the tale.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Or they believe they have had an appearance of the resurrected Savior- ... either in a dream or across a crowded room where their eyes met- Yeah ... uh, or, or something like that. There, or there could have been some kind of hallucination or some other reason that someone could feel convicted that they have seen the risen Jesus. Yes. And as, as I even have talked about a little bit in, um, in my book, Adonai's Divine Images, after people lose loved ones, I think it's upwards of, like, 40% of people who lose, like, spouses, people they've lived with their whole lives, report having perceived their presence in one- Mm ... sense or another. Sure. Like, it's a very common thing, is the brain doesn't just turn off the, the switch- Right ... that generates the sense of someone's presence just because they happen to pass away. That's not how human cognition works. And so these, these really intense experiences based on, uh, people who have committed their lives to a following, uh, that's, that's not outside the realm of what is normal when it comes to post-bereavement- ... uh, experiences. So-

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher That, that- ...

Dan McClellan the biggest problem... Go ahead.

Dan Beecher Well, I was just gonna say that and-

Dan McClellan Yes, and the other thing, uh-

Dan Beecher Plenty of people die for a lie.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and, and yes.

Dan Beecher Like, it happens all the time.

Dan McClellan Yes. But the thing that we're gonna talk about is the fact that it's not really clear that all of the original disciples of Jesus were put to death for their testimony.

Dan Beecher Okay. Well, with that said, let's dive into What's That? Okay, so here we are. All right. We got, we got a- Yes ... a, a collection of apostles. Yes. Uh, 12. It could be a baker's dozen, depending on who you go with- ... because, uh, because some people like to, uh, call an audible and substitute out once, uh, Judas gets got.

Dan McClellan Good old Judas. Uh, so we- we'll start with, with some of the, the low-hanging fruit, some of the easier ones, the ones that are actually, uh, mentioned-

Dan Beecher I love that we just talked about Judas, and then you mentioned low-hanging fruit. Considering he hanged himself.

Dan McClellan Uh, he, he did. Or did he? He did. Or did

Dan Beecher he? Or did

Dan McClellan he- Yeah, well-

Dan Beecher Or did he just fall over and blow up?

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh. Um, uh, making me think of The Simpsons where he, uh, tries to steal all the candy from the candy convention- ... and takes the Pop Rocks and the soda and, like, ugh, puts them together and chucks them, and- Like, like a grenade. Yeah, creates a huge explosion as they run out the door. Um, so, uh, the, James- Okay ... uh, the son of Zebedee. Not the other James- Um- ... 'cause there's multiple Jameses. Yeah, there's, there's multiple Jameses, but, uh, according to, uh, Acts 12:2, um, this was, uh, he was put to death by Herod Agrippa. Okay. Um, he had, uh, James, the brother of John, killed with the sword. Okay. And so, yes. So that

Dan Beecher one's actually- That seems- ... that, that's recorded in the Bible.

Dan McClellan In the Bible. That doesn't necessarily mean it's, it's historically accurate, but it- Right ... it is at least recorded in the Bible. So i- to the degree that we're gonna take an account of someone's death, uh, in, uh, the Bible seriously, we need to take that one- Okay ... seriously. Um, and, and we've got, uh, and that, and that's really, I think that's it when it comes to- ... uh, the, the folks mentioned in the Bible. 'Cause Peter, a lot of people understand Peter to his... He was supposed to have been crucified upside down.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And people will appeal to Gospel of John 21, where it talks about how, uh, other people will, will lead you where, where you're gonna go, and, like, your arms will be stretched out or something like that. So people think of that as a prophetic allusion to Peter's martyrdom, but we don't really have a reference to Peter's martyrdom for a while. You have implied martyrdom, like, uh, 1 Clement, Clement of, of Alexandria. Um, or no, that- uh, Clement of Rome would be, uh, 1 Clement. Excuse me.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, it says that he was, uh... He endured many things and then went on to his eternal reward or something like that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And the implication is that he went on to eternity as a result of the things he endured.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So a lot of people understand that as a reference to some kind of martyrdom. Um-

Dan Beecher Some sort of, some sort of unpleasantness that led to his death.

Dan McClellan Yes. Now, whether or not this was a martyrdom that could have been stopped by Peter denying his testimony of the risen Savior-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... is really not clear. Uh, so that, that's another thing to bring up. Uh-

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan Maybe they did say, "You know what? I made, I made it all up. Uh, I'm not sure that, that that actually happened," and they were like, "Too late, you gotta die." Um, so, so it's not clear that that that is actually evidence that, uh, he was convinced. But I, I think Peter, of all the people from the New Testament who claim to have seen the risen Savior, I think Peter has probably the most solid testimony because Paul even talks about having visited Peter, and Paul refers to Peter's vision of the risen Jesus. So, so Peter probably did make the claim that, that he had seen the, the risen Jesus.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher And he, and he was theoret- The, the story is that he was crucified in Rome, right?

Dan McClellan Yeah, u- upside down.

Dan Beecher Upside down in Rome.

Dan McClellan And here's the thing, that tradition-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... it comes from an apocryphal text-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... called the Acts of Peter. And we're gonna see that most of these traditions actually come from a, a genre of literature called the Acts of the Apostles, which are New Testament apocryphal texts usually written between the second and sixth centuries CE. Uh, and they're, they're filled with all kinds of fantastical tales of, of magic and derring-do and, and all this kind of stuff.

Dan Beecher Well, we've, we've met, we've met Thecla, so we know, we know some of the-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... derring-do that can happen-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in, in a, in an Acts of-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... book.

Dan McClellan So the account of his being, uh, crucified upside down in Rome under Nero comes from, uh, a text that was probably written in the second half of the second century. So probably 100 or more years after-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... he was actually dead is when someone writes that account.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, so the a- the actual nature of his martyrdom, uh, I would say we've got, we've got decent evidence for his martyrdom, but the actua- actual nature of it is apocryphal.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So not great.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and then let's, uh, move on to Andrew. Uh, says nothing in the New Testament-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, about Andrew. We have an Acts of Andrew which was written probably second or third, uh, century CE that talks about, uh, a martyrdom.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan A- and then Eusebius of Caesarea also talks about, uh, mission traditions, that he, uh, went gallivanting all around the world, and we're gonna see this as well, um, sometimes conflicting traditions about where these people went and preached. But, uh, the tradition that we see in the Acts of Andrew is that he was crucified on an X-shaped cross. So-

Dan Beecher A Saint Andrew's cross-

Dan McClellan So we get-

Dan Beecher ... for those of you in the kink, uh, in the- In the kink ... in the kink world.

Dan McClellan Um, I think the Saint Andrew's cross exists outside the kink world as well.

Dan Beecher Out- outside of the kink world?

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, yeah.

Dan Beecher You guys can have it, too. That's fine. Whatever.

Dan McClellan But, um, yeah, you have... And, and notice there's, uh, there are variations on a theme.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Uh, Peter, upside-down cross. Andrew, X cross.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's like everybo- everybody gets their own special kind of crucifixion.

Dan Beecher Everybody gets their... Well, because, because, like, the iconography of that T is already taken, so we- ... we gotta go with something different.

Dan McClellan And that, and that's why Peter was, uh, according to the Acts of Peter, I believe, that, um, that's where it explains it. It was because he didn't feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Savior.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Uh, and then we get to John, son of Zebedee.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, and Irenaeus says John lived to an old age. Eusebius of Caesarea says he, uh, dies in Ephesus. Uh, this is one of the disputed ones. Uh, Papias of Hierapolis, uh, kind of maybe there was a martyrdom. Who knows? Uh, could have happened. But, um-

Dan Beecher Did I, did I see something about John being boiled in oil? Is that one of the, one of the legends? Or am I-

Dan McClellan Um

Dan Beecher ... making that up?

Dan McClellan I don't know anything about... Oh, wait a minute. We got, uh... According to Tertullian, John was banished, presumably to Patmos-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... where he presumably wrote the book of Revelation. Um- Oh,

Dan Beecher oh, we're... Oh, right, because we're, we're assuming-

Dan McClellan Right, right

Dan Beecher ... that this is the same John.

Dan McClellan Yeah. After being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it. Oh,

Dan Beecher okay.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Oh, he s- he survived the oil-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... and then just died of old age. Okay.

Dan McClellan And then the audience in the Colosseum all converted to Christianity when they saw the miracle.

Dan Beecher Oh, of course they did. Okay.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher There you go.

Dan McClellan So, so here, here's one thing. Uh, people will say, "Yeah, John banished to Patmos, wrote the book of Revelation, uh, lived, uh, a long life." There's nothing that connects the author of the Gospel of John to, or the, uh, the Apostle John to the Book of Revelation apart from the name John.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Which was a common name.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, uh, yeah. So the, a lot of people talk about the tradition. They're already presupposing the traditional identification of the John who is supposed to have written Revelation with the John who is the apostle, and therefore with the author of the Gospel of John, and that identification is, uh, dubious at best- Right ... and downright silly, um, if you listen to, uh, experts and even early Christians. There were early Christians who were like, "Yeah, these are not the same office."

Dan Beecher So if, if John, son of Zebedee, and John of Patmos are two different people, which one took the hot tub in oil, uh, and, and gave every- ... and, and, and impressed everybody, uh, into becoming Christians?

Dan McClellan I vote neither of them. Um-

Dan Beecher Okay, fine. Fine.

Dan McClellan Um, after that, we, uh, we get to Philip.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, uh, we have again, uh, Papias of Hierapolis. A lot of people like Papias because he's the one who says, "Yeah, the, Matthew wrote down all the sayings of Jesus in Hebrew," and, uh, and, you know, Mark, the, uh, Peter's interpreter, he wrote down the sayings of Jesus and all this. So he, he's a, a witness to an early assignment of authorship to the Gospels, but literally everything else he said, Christians are like, "Nope, that didn't happen." But he's one of the, a- and it's all r- he's the one who came up with that, uh, tells that other story about Judas, uh, dying because he just got so bloated and huge- Uh-huh ... that he couldn't even walk down the street, and then, uh, w- got run over by a wagon or something like that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So yeah. Um, but, uh, Papias says something about, uh, about Philip's death. Uh, Eusebius of, of Caesarea has, uh, something. It's a little vague, though. We don't really have, uh, any clear like, "Yeah, he was, he was crucified upside down." As far as I know, I think there is a tradition that he was, uh, beheaded.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay.

Dan McClellan Either crucified or beheaded.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan There is an, there is an Acts of Philip, uh, that is another apocryphal text that's, like, fourth century, so even further away.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and I apologize if it sounds like I've, uh, got a little lisp. I'm, I'm finding out what syllables are more difficult for me to pronounce right now with-

Dan Beecher You'll get there, man. You'll get there ...

Dan McClellan with all this gear in my mouth. Um, uh, and so from Philip, we go to, uh, Bartholomew.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, what's your name, Barf? Your full name, Bartholomew. Uh, so from, uh, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Eusebius, by the way, was the historian for Constantine, the Emperor Constantine in the fourth century- Sure. Okay ... CE. So he wrote, uh, uh, Ecclesiastical History. He wrote a bunch of texts and talks about a lot of traditions. He says, uh, Bartholomew went to India- Oh ... for a mission. Yeah.

Dan Beecher Ooh.

Dan McClellan Yeah, got to-

Dan Beecher That's fancy.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Uh, and then there's a, a later legend, and I think there's an, there's an Acts of, is it Andrew and Bartholomew? I think there's a, there's a combined Acts of, of, I think it's Andrew and Bartholomew. I don't remember, but says that they went to Armenia.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, and in Armenia, they, he converted somebody that ticked off the king, and the king had him, uh, had him tortured and, and executed or something like that. But there's a- another one that, that says he, uh, he died in some other country. So, and, and- Okay ... these are very late. These are, again, third, fourth, fifth century where these- Okay ... traditions are coming from.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So mo- most of the people who say, "Here's how the apostles all died," they're, they probably just Googled this- Right ... or, or some source was like, "Here's how he died, and here's how he died, and here's how he died." And they just rattle it off as if it is, uh, all sober history, and, and really it's just-

Dan Beecher Is it, or, or, or biblical?

Dan McClellan Yeah, or biblical, and, and really, it's just these, uh, traditions that are being collated from these late Acts of the Apostles, which are apocryphal texts that, that talk about these, you know, magical duels that they had with, uh, with, uh, other, uh, magicians and things like that.

Dan Beecher And which were probably written not in conjunction with each other. Far from e- like, these were probably-

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah, yeah ...

Dan Beecher just, uh, this is just fanfic that was written by- Yeah ... various and sundry people.

Dan McClellan And, and it may be, um, there's a, there's a text called The Golden Legend, which is, uh, compiled around 1260, a dude named, uh, I think Jacobus. Uh, I, and I don't know how to pronounce his, his last name, but, um, he seems to have col- uh, I think it was like a lives of the saints, basically. Mm. And I, I think he may have been one of the main collators of a lot of these legends.

Dan Beecher Sure, sure, sure.

Dan McClellan So they, they do go from being kind of spread out, just stray legends, perhaps to being collected in a single volume, and maybe that's what, uh, starts people down this, this route of, of collecting them all. Uh, Matthew, of Matthew fame.

Dan Beecher Yes. I've heard of him.

Dan McClellan Of, of Book of Matthew fame. Um, Papias says, uh, mentions writings, doesn't say anything about his death. There is an Acts of Matthew, and I, and that one's gotta be, uh, third or fourth century. I'm not, I don't know exactly when that one dates to. But the traditions have him dying, uh, being martyred either in, like, Ethiopia or Persia.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So you've got, you've got different traditions on that. Um, Thomas-

Dan Beecher And, and I've got, I've got Matthew as either stabbed, burned, or beheaded, depending on-

Dan McClellan Oh

Dan Beecher ... which source you're looking at, so.

Dan McClellan Or, yeah. Or-

Dan Beecher That sounds exciting

Dan McClellan ... you know, why not, why not all three?

Dan Beecher Why-

Dan McClellan I mean, certainly that's been, certainly that's happened. Um- Por qué no

Dan Beecher los tres? Sure.

Dan McClellan Por qué no? Um, and that brings us to Thomas, uh, doubting Thomas. We have a third-century Acts of Thomas. Uh, and I b- and there's a tradition of him being martyred in India.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So I don't, I-

Dan Beecher Another India guy, okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah. I don't know if that comes directly from... I think that comes from the Acts of Thomas, but it has been a long time since I've read, uh, the Acts of Thomas. Uh, we have another James, who is, may or may not be James the Just.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan M- I think if, if they conflate this James with James the Just, then he might be mentioned in Josephus-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... as the brother of Jesus-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, who was, who was put to death. So it all depends on, on whether or not you conflate the two. Um, Thaddeus, also known as Jude. We don't see many Thaddeus' these days. I actually, come to think of it, I knew a, uh, I had a guy named Thad who, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... took a Hebrew class with me many years ago.

Dan Beecher There you go.

Dan McClellan But, um, he is supposed to have had a, uh, a mission to Adi or Edessa.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, and there are, and there are, uh, later apocryphal traditions that have him being martyred in Persia.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And I think those are, again, like, fourth, fifth, maybe even sixth century.

Dan Beecher I've, I've got him killed with a club or an ax, so that's-

Dan McClellan All right

Dan Beecher ... that's exciting.

Dan McClellan You know what? Probably the same.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan 'Cause you could have a, you could have a, an ax tip on the end of a club. So-

Dan Beecher Club, club him and ax him. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Uh, Simon the Zealot, uh, talks about, uh, uh, martyrdom in Persia. There are some traditions that have him, uh, partnered up with Thaddeus/Jude, but these are, again, late.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Do you have, do you, do you, are you aware of a tradition that gives specifics about the implements of his martyrdom?

Dan Beecher I, mine says sawed in half.

Dan McClellan Oh, nice.

Dan Beecher I like that one. I mean, I don't like it. I w- I would prefer not to be sawed in half.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Beecher But, uh, un- unless, you know, it's, it's in Vegas, and I am then- ... thereafter restored to wholeness.

Dan McClellan Yes. Um, and then the, the 12th, uh, Apostle, Judas Iscariot. I guess if we include him, then we do have two different biblical accounts of his-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... his death. I don't think you would call it a martyrdom, at least not if-

Dan Beecher No

Dan McClellan ... you want to stay on the good side of the Christians. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, he, I think, I think he lost his, uh, he, he lost his chance to be a martyr. He doesn't-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... he doesn't get to be that.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, uh, if you go by the Gospel of Matthew, uh, it was a simple hanging after throwing his 30 pieces of silver into the temple and repenting of his wicked deed. If you go by-

Dan Beecher Specifically hanging himself. He was not hanged-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... but, but hanged himself.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, uh, the Acts of the Apostles 1:18-19 offer the the account where he buys a field with the money-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... and then is on, in his field, just like, "This is a nice field," and falls and explodes. And, um-

Dan Beecher That's, that's maybe my favorite biblical death. I think of all of the biblical deaths, that's the one you gotta, you gotta love.

Dan McClellan Yeah, stabs his toe and, and blows up.

Dan Beecher Just, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher The, what, what, what's the, the name of the guy in the Monty Python sketch? Uh, the guy that, "Uh, couldn't possibly. Oh, sir, it's just waffling." He-

Dan McClellan Okay

Dan Beecher ... remember? In M- in, in, uh, in... Ah, forget about it. The, the, the guy that eats so much he explodes.

Dan McClellan I, I vaguely, very vaguely remember the sketch. I remember-

Dan Beecher How? How? You literally remember everything that you've ever seen except that?

Dan McClellan Well, I was thinking of Strange Brew-

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan ... where the guy has to dr- drink the entire vat of beer. And then there's, like, a fire, and he's, and he's the, the giant big old guy and-

Dan Beecher Puts the whole thing out.

Dan McClellan Yeah, he's gotta, yeah, pee on the fire to, to put it out.

Dan Beecher "I gotta take a leak so bad I can taste it, eh?" There, I did one. I got, I got the, the quote on that.

Dan McClellan Oh, gosh. Um-

Dan Beecher All right. Well, so we have a bunch of dead, uh, apostles now. Uh-

Dan McClellan Well, they're definitely dead now.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Uh, whether, whether these accounts accurately represent-

Dan Beecher So scholars agree-

Dan McClellan ... the manner of their death

Dan Beecher ... on that part. Scholars agree that they all did manage-

Dan McClellan Almost universal

Dan Beecher ... to die.

Dan McClellan Almost universal. Almost universal- ... because there's still an open question about John.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, particularly if you're Mormon.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, 'cause-

Dan Beecher Oh, gosh, yes. Okay.

Dan McClellan And then, and then that's not even bringing into question the three Nephites.

Dan Beecher Oh. All right. Uh, well, there you go. Uh, they, they, some of them may have died for lies, or there's no lie, or it's like... Anyway, that apologetic is silly. Uh, can we just-

Dan McClellan It is weak apologetic, yes.

Dan Beecher We'll just say that. Um, but yeah, it's, it's nice to know how these traditions sort of came to be. That's, uh, I think it's very interesting.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and, and h- just how much apocryphal literature is out there that is not a part of our Bible, but that continues to influence-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... the way that people think and talk about these figures and construct arguments for the historicity of what's going on. I think, I think a lot of people would be interested to know that a lot of what they think they know about these figures is actually coming to them from texts they would otherwise dismiss-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... as nonsensical, uh, and apocryphal ravings of a, of, um, you know, somebody who wasn't breastfed properly or something like that.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan I don't know.

Dan Beecher But- But it ju- it, uh, what's nice about it is just to b- to acknowledge that it's part of the sort of rich, colorful tapestry-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... that is the Christian tradition.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. It does not descend, um, ex nihilo from, from one, um, revealed truth.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It, it comes to us from centuries and centuries of, of transmission and interaction. Uh, and yeah, it's messy.

Dan Beecher All right.

Dan McClellan Uh, but what's not messy is the fact that, uh, the argument that nobody dies for a lie, therefore Jesus resurrected is pretty bad.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. It is. I, I declare it defeated. So- Uh, there we go. Uh, if you, dear friends, would care to join the, the, the many people who help to keep this show going and, uh, and keep our, our families fed, you can- ... go and become a patron over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma, where, uh, you can get early and ad-free episodes, and you can get the after party, which is, uh, bonus content that we do every single week. Uh, and we, we sure do appreciate our patrons. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show. Thanks to JJ Neward for being our p- p- producer, and thanks to all y'all for tuning in. We sure do appreciate you.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.