The Messiah Wasn't Supposed to Die

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. And we're getting Messianic in this segment.

Dan Beecher Ooh, yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Aren't we?

Dan Beecher Yeah. I, uh, I don't have any oil. I should have brought oil with me. Uh, here's the thing. I don't think we, I don't think I grew up knowing what a Messiah is, so, uh, I think that that's a useful thing to talk about. Uh, we're gonna make that our What's That? for today. So let's, let's just dive in with What's That? Okay, Messiah. It's a word that we have, uh, everyone, every Christian grew up hearing this word, Messiah. Mm-hmm. Um, I believe every Jew knows the word Messiah. Uh, I did not grow up knowing what that word meant, really, other than Jesus. In, you know, in my world- Yeah ... it is the Messiah. There's a definite article there. It is one guy, and, uh, and that's that. That's the end of that.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But I don't think that's correct.

Dan McClellan That's, that's not even the beginning of that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan If that makes any sense. Uh, but the, you, you probably, if you've ever heard somebody say the Messiah Jesus Christ, or Jesus Christ the Messiah- ... um, that is, you know, the, the same appositional phrase, just in different orders, but it's also a little redundant. It's like

Dan Beecher ATM machine. It's like the Los An-

Dan McClellan or, or the Los Angeles Angels. Um, or the, yeah. Um, but 'cause Messiah means anointed one, mashiach in Hebrew, based on the verbal root mashach, and Christ, Christos in Greek, means anointed one. So, uh, a lot of people think Christ is, like, Jesus' last name. Um, and we, have we ever done, we... Okay, I've got an idea for, our next segment is going to be, where does Jesus H. Christ come from?

Dan Beecher Okay. I-

Dan McClellan Um, but the, but that makes it sound like he's got a first name, a middle initial, and a last name. But-

Dan Beecher And he does. I know for a fact that he does. It i-

Dan McClellan Um, but Christ is not Jesus' last name. No. Jesus' last name was of Nazareth. Um- Just-

Dan Beecher It was, uh, yeah. Yeah. Josephstine. I don't know. I-

Dan McClellan But, uh, but Christ just means anointed one, so it's really a title, Jesus the Anointed One, or Jesus- Right ... the Anointed, or something like that, and Messiah is the same. And, and that is where I think a lot of the more fascinating features of, of the concept of the Messiah are to be, is to be found. I just totally lost track of, of number in, in, where I was going with that. Didn't know if it was an is or an are. But, uh, because Messiah really just means somebody who got oiled down.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, so.

Dan Beecher That's, I'm, I guess we should start with the idea of anointing 'cause, uh, 'cause, yeah, uh, anointed, you, you said oiled down. What, what do, what do we mean by that? Uh, what, what is an anointing, uh, uh, with oil? Why, why was it done? What, what, what's going on there?

Dan McClellan So, uh, anointing with oil is, is kind of a ritual act. Uh, and it, and it's not like somebody is, you know, it's not bronzer or anything like that is being spread all over somebody. Real- usually they're, they're pouring some, usually on somebody's head or something like that. And, and this is to symbolize their, uh, authorization or their, um, endowment with some kind of right, responsibility, mission, something like that. And so- Okay ... in the Hebrew Bible, we see this in association with kings. Somebody would have oil poured on their head as a symbol of their, uh, being authorized to rule as king or something like that.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, priests could, uh, could have, uh, anointings, and then prophets as well, uh, could- Okay ... in, in some sense be anointed. So really, it means authorized one, the one who was authorized through this particular ritual act.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so you don't have the notion of the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. You just have the concept of people who have been anointed.

Dan Beecher So, so would you say, so let's say a king, uh, be, you know, in, in, in the story of David in, in Samuel, it talks about he doesn't kill Saul because Saul is God's anointed- Right ... king.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Is he a Messiah then?

Dan McClellan He is a Messiah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And in fact, uh, there's an i- there's another interesting case where, uh, if, if you believe the author of, uh, Deutero-Isaiah, there was a non-Israelite who was God's anointed. In fact, God says, call, refers to this person by name as, "My anointed one."

Dan Beecher Oh, I think I know who it is.

Dan McClellan And, or, or his anointed, actually. Yeah.

Dan Beecher I think, I, I never know these ones, but I think I know this one.

Dan McClellan You got this one? Okay.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan What is it?

Dan Beecher Is it Cyrus?

Dan McClellan It is Cyrus. Oh,

Dan Beecher I did it. I did one. Hooray. Yeah. So- I feel so good.

Dan McClellan So Isaiah 45:1, in the Hebrew, Komar Adonai limshicho, and that would be, "Thus says Adonai to his anointed one." And, and, and here's the fun part. You go into the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation, and you get, uh, houtos legi Kyrios, ho Theos to christo mou- kiro. And so, uh, this says God saying to christomu, "My Christ, Cyrus."

Dan Beecher Nice.

Dan McClellan So, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... yeah. So, in, in the Hebrew, it's his, uh, his anointed one. In the, in the Greek, it has been the, the possessive has changed to my. "So thus says the Lord God to my Christ, Cyrus."

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan So, uh, you have the Persian emperor identified explicitly as my Christ by God- ... in the ancient Greek translation of Isaiah. This is the version of Isaiah that would've been used by the earliest Christians.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, uh, so we have, we have Cyrus is God's Christ-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, in, uh, in the Hebrew Bible. So, but it doesn't mean Christ in the sense of the last name of the savior of the Earth.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It, it just means my anointed one, the guy I, uh, oiled down. Or- Up, whatever, whichever direction-

Dan Beecher Or wh- yeah, sure

Dan McClellan ... you prefer for reference, yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's dealer's choice on that. So, where does this idea of Messianic prophecy, Mes- Messiah, like, as a, as a single savior sort of idea, and is that... Are those two different ideas, savior and Messiah? Did, uh, like, did they just-

Dan McClellan They are, they are different ideas, but yes, they do converge.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And really, the... What happens is, who's, who's the, the big king from ancient Israel whose line was supposed to, uh, to remain in the throne for all time? And, and this is who Jesus was descended from.

Dan Beecher Right. Okay.

Dan McClellan Which one is that? Which, which king is that?

Dan Beecher Uh, David.

Dan McClellan David.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan The Davidic line, right. Right, right, right. So, David is an anointed, and then, uh, you even have in, in, uh, in Psalm 2, uh, "The king is Adonai's anointed one," where, where God says, "This day I have begotten you. You are my son." And so you get a lot of anointed one re- in relation to the Davidic king, David and any king in David's line. And once you get into the exile and after the exile, there's a lot of this looking forward to the restoration of David's line and this kingship, and this has to do with the restoration of a kingdom. We want our autonomy back. We want our kingdom back.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan We want our anointed ruler back. And so you have prophecies, ideas that, that pop up about somebody who's gonna come back and restore the line of David, and this would also be an anointed one, because the king is anointed. And so y- it gets kinda fuzzy once we get into the Exilic and the post-Exilic period, and these expectations about someone restoring the Davidic line, someone becoming the anointed one. And that-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... that bleeds into the anointed one being whoever is going to restore things.

Dan Beecher And that-

Dan McClellan Whoever's gonna return things to the way they were

Dan Beecher ... that makes a lot of sense. And doesn't it indicate that the idea would be, we want this anointed one to then start another lineage of anointed ones? Like, isn't that what we're talking about? Like, if they want the restoration of the line of David, of the Davidic king, wouldn't that indicate that, like, the, it's not just a guy, it's, like, a line of people? It's-

Dan McClellan Well, yeah. In, in the earliest periods of the development of, of this idea, it would basically be we want things to return to the way they were, and then we're good, then we're just gonna do our thing. And so, yeah, there would be more kings that would come after that. It's when you get into, uh, the post-Exilic period and into the Greco-Roman period when you're getting more eschatological expectations-

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah

Dan McClellan ... where it's, it's not just we want things to go back to the way they were, but we want things to wrap up.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan We, we expect things to come to an end.

Dan Beecher Right. Right.

Dan McClellan And that's, and that's where the anointed one takes on more eschatological properties.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan And that's where, that's where it's one single anointed one is going to come and once and for all destroy the enemy, restore the kingdom, and then whoever's there will just live out a glorious, uh, life of, of indeterminate length. But, but there's-

Dan Beecher So we're ta- okay. So, like, in Isaiah, when it's talking about a branch coming out of the, the, the s- the stump of-

Dan McClellan The stump of Jesse

Dan Beecher ... Jesse-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... like, that would be a Davidic line. That would be a line of kings or whatever.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then when we get into, where... Is it Daniel where the apocalypse, apocalyptic stuff is-

Dan McClellan So, so-

Dan Beecher ... is happening?

Dan McClellan ... I think we're, we're starting in Ezekiel, but yeah, it becomes more eschatological in Daniel, in, uh, 1 Enoch, in, in a lot of these Greco-Roman period Jewish texts. That's where the expectation is developing that, that we're wrapping things up.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And that there's gonna be... And this is also where you're seeing a lot more persecution, and the persecution is getting more and more severe, particularly once we get into Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the 160s BCE, which is the context for a lot of the eschatological parts of Daniel. And so the, as the persecution and the suffering becomes more and more acute, the eschatological expectations become more and more imminent. And, and yeah, I think you, you have the developing expectation. And mind you, there's a lot of pluriformity. People were expecting different things.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So it's not just like everybody was like, "Yeah, we all agree. This is what we're all expecting now, right? Even you, David? Okay. Good. We got David on board. Give this man a harumph." Um, like, there was a lot of different ideas about the Messiah. In fact, in the Dead Sea Scrolls- Which is, you know, around the same time period, the early period of the, of the, uh, transcription and preservation of the Dead Sea Scrolls is happening around the period of, of the composition of the Book of Daniel. You have the idea of two different Messiahs, a Messiah ben Yosef and a Messiah ben David. So, a Messiah ben Joseph would be a priestly Messiah, and the Messiah, uh, ben David or, or son of David would be the royal Messiah. So-

Dan Beecher And in this case, the Joseph in question is not Joseph, father of Jesus-

Dan McClellan No

Dan Beecher ... but Joseph, uh, and the amazing technicolor dream coat.

Dan McClellan Precisely. Yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, he's, he's going to be fabulous. And, uh, and he's gonna be the one... No, uh, it's, it, it's the priestly idea of, um, of the Messiah. So you, you have different ideas that are developing, and I think that's, uh, 1, 1QS. I'm, I'm blanking on, on the full name of the, of that fragment. But, uh-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... but you have different ideas. But one thing to keep in mind is that all of these Messiahs are supposed to restore political autonomy and independence, and this is supposed to be temporal, political, social.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan So that's what's everybody's expecting.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and here's where I think Jesus, um, achieves the biggest pivot, uh, because you, you are getting a little, um, kind of spiritualization of stuff, uh, where it becomes a lot more symbolic. It becomes a lot more about the afterlife and things like that. I think that the historical Jesus, if he represented himself as the Messiah and believed he was the Messiah, probably talked about restoring Israel to its, its former glory.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Probably expected to restore Israel's political autonomy and glory, and then got, uh, executed.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so I, I think that the development of the notion of salvation from sin rather than, uh, temporal, uh, physical salvation-

Dan Beecher Rather, rather than salvation from the, the Roman-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... Empire or whatever?

Dan McClellan Right. Yeah, 'cause the savior- The idea of a savior was always somebody who delivered you from harm.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the harm was always illness, war, something like that.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It was always temporal, physical, literal, "I'm saving you. I'm delivering you from the harm that, uh, almost got you." And-

Dan Beecher Or, or like from Babylonian exile or from-

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's a oppression or-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... subjugation or things like that. Um, and so I think that probably what happened after Jesus was executed, there was some going back to the drawing board that took place.

Dan Beecher Oh. Yeah.

Dan McClellan And I th- I think the spark of all of this was reports about Jesus resurrecting, coming back to life, seeing the risen Jesus.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And now it was like, "What are we gonna do with this?" And then we had to go back to the scriptures and find a way to read this new, uh, expectation that the Messiah would die and rise into the text, which required we reread a bunch of stuff that was never intended messianically as if it were messianic. W- Isaiah 53, as far as I can tell, was never messianic, and there have been some arguments from folks about potentially this could be messianic. There's a messianic reading preserved in some later rabbinic texts that could have been preserving something from the first century CE. Uh-

Dan Beecher Isaiah 53 says what? It's, it's basically, uh-

Dan McClellan That's the suffering servants. Uh, "By his stripes we are healed."

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan Uh, "Like a lamb before, um, slaughter is, is, uh, silenced," all that kind of stuff.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan So, uh-

Dan Beecher I mean, that's the one that's quoted in Handel's Messiah.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes.

Dan Beecher So I feel like-

Dan McClellan So-

Dan Beecher ... obviously it is messianic 'cause Handel says so

Dan McClellan ... well, I, I feel like the rhetorical pivot worked because then everybody-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... went, "Duh, the Messiah was never about political independence and restoration. It was always-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... about spiritual deliverance from sin, from death, uh, just the, the concept of death in general and all that stuff." And I, and I think that's what made things, uh, I think that's what helped the gospel gain more purchase because it was no longer just, "You wait and see. We're going to defeat the Romans," uh, because, you know, you, you look around and be like, "We ain't defeated no Romans yet."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, it, that, that's a, that's a tough thing to sell. Uh, just like in another segment, we talked about Noah's Ark. There's a, there are only so many generations of, "We're almost ready to release the data-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... that can pass," before people start realizing there's no data for you to release.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But if the claim is now, "Oh, this is about salvation after death. This is about the salvation of your soul," that's a much easier, uh, pill to swallow. That's a much, uh, easier bottle of, of, uh, snake oil to sell. So, so I think that's probably largely responsible for the attractiveness of the Christian gospel. But the Messiah then becomes a spiritual savior, and deliverer, and anointed one. And so the mission of the anointed one entirely changes after Jesus is executed, and they have to redraw what, what the, the identity and the mission of the Messiah was. And, and so I, I think that's probably the biggest change. We, it's always changing what the, the understanding of the mission and identity of the Messiah. But I think because they were forced into a position where they had to grapple with a Messiah who failed, who died- ah, they had to come up with a way to make it, ah, still work if they, if they wanted their movement to succeed. And their movement ultimately did succeed, and I think it's precisely because they reinvented, ah, what the Messiah was supposed to be. And the developments along the way made that possible.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because once you have a heavenly apocalyptic deliverer as Messiah, that dovetails a lot more easily with, "Oh, and guess what? They're actually not in charge of our rinky-dink little political situation here on Earth. That heavenly apocalyptic Messiah is now in charge of the gates of hell and, and, ah, you know, the boundaries of death," and all that kind of stuff. So, the, the stakes get ratcheted up as, ah, as things get worse and worse, but that also makes it easier to pivot towards, ah, the greater stakes of this being about salvation, ah, eternally of your soul-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... against sin and death and all that kind of stuff.

Dan Beecher Now they just need that apocalypse, ah, any day now. Any day now. Any day now.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher That, that... It's, it is interesting.

Dan McClellan And that, and that's what we're waiting on. That's, that's the great delay that, ah- ... that is still associated with that Messiahship. And so- Yeah ... yeah, it's not-

Dan Beecher It's only 2,000 years late. It's fine.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It, it's not without its sticking points, but- ... you know, it's a, it's a much smoother pitch now than-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah

Dan McClellan ... than it was previously.

Dan Beecher It's an interesting... Like, I'm fascinated by this, ah, by, by this eschatological pivot that happened in Daniel and, and those other books just because, yeah, I- how bleak did it get for those people that it went from, "We want our... We just want our country/kingdom/sort of our autonomous rule back," to, "You know what?"

Dan McClellan Burn it all down.

Dan Beecher "The whole thing's just gonna blow up."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, that's, that is a hardcore swap.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's a big switch there.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, and it took a couple centuries, and, and I'm sure it wasn't an easy, ah, it wasn't an easy sell. But, ah- Yeah ... but yeah, I, I imagine that-

Dan Beecher But things got bleak.

Dan McClellan Oh, yeah. And I imagine that fantasizing about watching, watching the enemies burn, ah, was, was a big part of what made it attractive. And, and that's where you get the ideas of, ah, eternal conscious torment-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... is from, you know, "I wanna watch Antiochus IV Epiphanes suffer. I want that suffering to go on and on and on and on." And so I, I imagine that concepts of hell and eternal conscious torment originated in, how do we make ourselves feel better about the fact that the big baddies that, that ended up killing so many of our people don't seem to, to-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... receive their comeuppance in life? And so what-

Dan Beecher They're doing just fine. They're, they're-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... they're dining on, on lamb while we're-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... beings- while we're suffering.

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... yeah, and anybody, you know, you can just say he poops on a toilet of, made of gold, and we can think of... Like, there's one person I know a lot of people are thinking of, but that's not the only one.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Ah, you'll, you'll recall there were toilets made of gold in, in the palaces that were, ah, that were taken over, ah, in Ukraine and, and places like that-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... following, ah, a lot of the, um, things that have gone on over there. Like, there are a lot of places in the world where there are bad people who have the blood of thousands and hundreds of thousands and millions on their hands and, and you can sympathize with the people who are under those boots, just fantasizing about what's gonna, what God is gonna do-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... to the people wearing those boots in the afterlife. So yeah, I, I think it was bleak. And, and I think that's what's responsible for developing that idea. And, and then later, we just ran with it, and we were like, "This is really useful if we teach our kids."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "We're gonna tell our kids that they're in danger of that. That's really gonna make sure that they do the dishes and go the freak to bed on time." So, ugh, and then they're gonna, they're gonna grow up with all kinds of anxiety.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And then we'll drop the rapture on them.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan And that'll make it even worse. And any time that we haven't gotten home from work by the time they're home from school, that's gonna be a core memory, baby.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan That's gonna ruin the rest of their adulthood.

Dan Beecher Ugh. Okay. Well, there you go. A Messiah, the Messiah, one of the Messiahs. There's a lot of different ways to think about Messianic things.

Dan McClellan And even some universities, ah, that, that have that title.

Dan Beecher Oh, really?

Dan McClellan Isn't there?

Dan Beecher Messiah University?

Dan McClellan I, I thought there was.

Dan Beecher Well, I'm just gonna believe you. Ah-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... nobody look it up. And we're just gonna-

Dan McClellan It's in-

Dan Beecher ... take Dan's word for it

Dan McClellan ... it's in Pennsylvania.

Dan Beecher Oh, okay. I, it, the, well, I wanna know who poured oil on it. Ah- Oily University, ah, you can look it up if you want to. All right. Fascinating stuff. I'm, I, I find that super interesting. Ah, so there you go. If you, friends, found it super interesting and want to continue, want us to be able to continue our work, we invite you to become a member here on YouTube. You just click the join button wherever you find that. I don't know where it goes. Ah, but there's a join button, I, I, I am assured. And then you can, ah, you can become a member. There are lives that, that Dan and I will do that, ah, that we'll participate in, and, ah, a lot of fun stuff for, for our members. You can also go to, ah, y- if, if you don't wanna be a member on YouTube, you can become one of our patrons over on patreon.com, ah, slash Data Over Dogma, and that's, ah, also interesting. Ah, you can add free episodes, ah, early. Ah, our members get early episodes here on YouTube also. Ah, and so the, just find a way to help us out. Like, comment, subscribe. Those are always good, and we will talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.