The Invincible Female Apostle

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat that ever-present spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher I'm f- things are good.

Dan McClellan All right.

Dan Beecher Uh, but that misinformation is ever-presenter, uh-

Dan McClellan Isn't it?

Dan Beecher Every, every day. It, it becomes... It, yeah, it, it, it, it has, it might surpass information soon. Yeah,

Dan McClellan that, that darn internet and the- ... and now we got, we got the AI slop that we gotta work through, evidently. And, um, yes, the misinformation is just presenter and presenter- Yeah ... uh, ever more so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yes.

Dan Beecher But not on this show, uh, because today, we have a really fun one.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I'm really looking forward to it. We're going to dive into the apocrypha, into the world of apocrypha. And apocryphal text, yeah. And a text that didn't, never made the cut, was never in-

Dan McClellan Not, not in the, not in the, uh the canonical apocrypha. Right, right. Um, but in, uh, the broader apocrypha.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah. It's a good one, too. You're gonna like it. This is the Acts of Paul and Thecla, and, uh, I think we should just dive right in with Apocryphilia. All right, and this week's Apocryphilia, I, I said it before, it's the Acts of Paul and Thecla. I had never heard of it.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Uh, you know, I've heard of some of, some of the books that, that never quite made the cut. You know, you're, you got your, your Gospel of Thomas or your, you know-

Dan McClellan You're cut.

Dan Beecher Uh, just, just that. I've heard of a few. Mary, Gospel of Mary Magdalene or something like. You're cut. She's out.

Dan McClellan Yep, yep.

Dan Beecher Uh, but I had never heard of an Acts that was, that got the ax. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yep, also cut.

Dan Beecher So, so talk to me about f- let's, before we dive into sort of what's in it- Yeah ... talk to me about the history and the, uh, the, w- what we know of the Acts of Paul and Thecla.

Dan McClellan So it's a text that probably comes from somewhere in the second century CE. Uh, there's, there's a dude named Tertullian, we've talked about him, uh, before on the show. Around by the time of about 200 CE, he's talking about this text, uh, as a, a well-meaning, uh, but spurious document. Uh, and it's part of kind of the broader Acts of Paul. There would've been a lot of stories and texts circulating about, uh, f- the further exploits of Paul beyond what we have in the Pauline epistles in the Acts of the Apostles. And, uh, some people think maybe this is early second century, mid-second century, late second century. Don't, we don't really have a way of knowing. Some people think that some of these stories circulated independently about Thecla prior to being worked into the, the manuscript as we have it now.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But, um, this is, uh-

Dan Beecher Oh, so, so, uh, so one of the theories is that maybe we already, Thecla was already sort of out in the world, and someone just stapled it onto Paul to give it a little more, uh, a li- a little more oomph or something. Something

Dan McClellan like that. Th- Thecla was probably associated with Paul early on in, in the life cycle of, of these traditions, but there might have been just kind of stray stories about Thecla and, and Paul.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Uh, but w- as, as we go through, Paul kind of, um, is, is mostly on the sidelines of the narrative, but there are large chunks where Paul is not in the narrative at all.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so these, these stories could very well have circulated prior to the involvement of Paul. So, um, yeah, who's to say, uh, which of those situations is most accurate? Maybe they're, they're accurate in different ways to different parts of the, the narrative. Um-

Dan Beecher And as we know, like, a, like, I, I don't know. It, was the author of this trying to attribute it to Paul? Or I, I, I guess not, because it doesn't... But all of, I, I don't know how attribution ends up working, because half the time when a, when a work is attributed to that person- Mm-hmm ... it means that that person is talking about themselves in the third person, and it's so weird, and it doesn't make any sense.

Dan McClellan Well, the Acts usually are not. They're usually third-person narratives.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, the Acts of the Apostles is supposed to have been written by, uh, Luke is the, is the name that we've a- assigned to it.

Dan Beecher Oh, right, right, right.

Dan McClellan But it, it's about Paul and Peter and, uh, and the others. And so, uh, y- you know, Paul's not around for a lot of what's going on here, so, so it doesn't seem to be a first-person narrative. But, um, but yeah, th- this, this genre of the Acts- Yeah ... is something that, that we see, uh, associated with a variety of different characters where it's just giving a third-person narration of their, their exploits-

Dan Beecher I guess I've never asked- ...

Dan McClellan as they're spreading the gospel ...

Dan Beecher when it says the Acts, that just means, like, the doings, the, the, the- Yes ... the things that they did.

Dan McClellan Yes, the works.

Dan Beecher The actual acts of these people. Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, so we've got-

Dan McClellan It's not the battle ax of Paul and Thecla.

Dan Beecher Right, right. No, no, no. Um, all right. Well, let's dive into the story then, I think. Yeah. Uh, because it is good, and I recommend finding it online and reading it. It's short. It's not, it's not hard to get through, but- Yeah,

Dan McClellan what do we, what do we got? They're, they're, they're large verses. Like, more like paragraphs than verses, and it looks like-

Dan Beecher Yeah, they're definitely more- ...

Dan McClellan there are 43, 43 verses in the, in the work.

Dan Beecher Yeah. But do think of those as paragraphs, 'cause it's not- Yeah ... the versification is not the same as what you'll- Yeah ... find in, in the Bible.

Dan McClellan So we, we lay our scene in fair Iconium-

Dan Beecher Yes, indeed ...

Dan McClellan which is, uh, the southwest corner of, uh, Turkey or Asia Minor.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan Uh, and so Paul is, is headed that way, and we've got, and Paul has, has got some fellow travelers, Demas and Hermogenes, who are, who end up being kind of, uh, foils-

Dan Beecher Yeah, they're they're like the, the, the, the two evil Disney sidekicks who are like-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... plotting against him while, while walking with him and pretending to, to fawn over him.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. And they're, and they get jealous of, of, uh, his attention. But they, uh, they run into a dude named Onesiphorus-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... who is-

Dan Beecher Good job on that name. I- I kept having to read it really slowly. One-

Dan McClellan Onesiphorus

Dan Beecher ... ones- one-

Dan McClellan On- ones-

Dan Beecher ... es- ni- phor- nirf.

Dan McClellan Two I, I, Is. Um, and, uh, and, uh, uh, Onesiphorus finds out what, what Paul looks like, and he goes and, and, and I, I think this is so peculiar. Paul is described as a man small in size, bald-headed, bandy-legged, of noble mien, with eyebrows meeting, rather hook-nosed, full of grace. And, um, sometimes he seemed like a man, and sometimes he had the face of an angel. And, uh, and Paul is, is nice. He's, uh, Onesiphorus and, and, uh, "Hail, oh servant of the blessed God," and-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... and is being nice to him. There, there are a lot of these kind of doxological greetings that are going on-

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm

Dan McClellan ... uh, all over the place. And, uh, and, uh, Onesiphorus is, is talking to Paul and, and, uh, the two, the two lackeys are like, "How dare you not greet us? What do we not- Are we not full of grace?" Uh, and he's, and he's kinda like, "I do not see God's light in you, but if you're, if you're good people, then come to my house. We can-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... we can discuss."

Dan Beecher He does. He's so it's, so he's... They're like, "Hey, what about us? You, you're supposed to greet us." And he's, uh, he's like, "N- y- I don't think you look great, but yeah- ... come. It's cool."

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um, and, and Paul shows up and just preaches evidently nonstop for days.

Dan Beecher It does give that sense because-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... Thecla then, uh, sees him out her window. I guess she's across the street from Onesiphorus, and is listening to him preach, and does not leave her window for three days. Doesn't eat.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Doesn't do anything, just sort of out her window-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... as, uh, as, as Paul preaches. Uh-

Dan McClellan I'm, I'm thinking of the scene in, um, it's Raiders of the Lost Ark, right? Where the girl in the class- ... blinks- ... and she's got "love you" or something like that written on her eyelids.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan And he's going like, "Uh, so

Dan Beecher yeah." Only it's the opposite of that because what she's falling in love with, at least in part, is that Paul is preaching-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... absolute virginity.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Sex is bad.

Dan McClellan Celibacy. Yep.

Dan Beecher Marriage sucks. Ascetic life is the only life if you really love Jesus.

Dan McClellan Yes. And this is, and this is seen as, as a good thing. And, and this is part of one of the, one of like the main thrusts of, of this story is... And this is one of the reasons you, you mentioned that, uh, that the ladies probably liked, uh, this story a lot, because it kind of gives them a social identity and a mission that is not tied to their subjugation to a paterfamilias in a household.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So it's not you... Because at the time, you know, the best you could hope for is to marry some dude, and then, and then basically be tied to his household and, and that is where you draw your, your social identity from. But-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... you're basically just a servant in, in your own house, and this gives them an opportunity to be free from, uh, from that patriarchal ball and chain. Uh, and so that is not only what Thecla seems excited about, but also the main threat that is posed to the antagonists of the story because the husband gets outraged. And even, uh, initially, Thecla's, uh, mom is like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on here?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and so it's, it represents a threat to the Greco-Roman social order, the, the patriarchal household system.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan If these, uh, if these women, uh, are deciding they're going to, um, just abandon that goal, that lifestyle, and go off and, and, uh, run around like hippies in the woods, uh, that's, that's a big problem. So-

Dan Beecher I think, I... And correct me if I'm wrong, but this is actually... Like, this, this anti-sex message is actually pretty close to the, the actual Pauline, uh, message.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. Certainly the, this... We, we see this in 1 Corinthians 7 where Paul's like, "Yeah, it's better to be celibate, but if you can't hang, if you can't hack celibacy, you know, it's, uh, go ahead and get married and, uh, you know, it's better to marry than to burn with, uh, with passion." Uh, and that way you can have your occasional, uh, as I like to call it, I, I, uh, I have some friends who, who get annoyed with my characterization of Paul's sexual ethic this way. I, I don't think it's inaccurate, though. Uh, go ahead and have your occasional prophylactic passionless sex to keep down the urges-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, as, uh, as, uh, the great poet Ned Flanders- ... uh, once said about cornstarch. Uh, so, so yeah, th- this is... And, and I think that's one of the reasons that Paul is, is a central figure in this story is because it is carrying on. It's kind of taking up the banner of Pauline asceticism and, and, um, just carrying it and talking about-

Dan Beecher Running with it.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah. R- sprinting-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... hard. Um-

Dan Beecher And I th- I, uh... And let's put a pin in that because I think also later on in the story, we're gonna get to more, uh, stuff where this holds to original Paul, where pseudo P- pseudo Paul-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... diverges.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And in fact, there's even a theory that this, this text may have been a catalyst for some of these pseudo Pauline texts-

Dan Beecher Oh

Dan McClellan ... that, that have Paul saying, "Some people say it's bad to marry," and, um, you know, that's- maybe, uh, if not this text, it maybe related traditions are circulating, inspiring some people to say, uh, "This Paul needs a makeover."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and, uh, and, and thus the, um, Pastoral Epistles maybe.

Dan Beecher Interesting. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. That- it is a theory. I'm, I'm not saying-

Dan Beecher So, so we'll get, we'll get to more of that later on-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... in, in, in the discussion. But yes, so, so your... As you mentioned, Thecla has a betrothed.

Dan McClellan Mm.

Dan Beecher She is, she has a, a, a man, uh-

Dan McClellan Thamurys, or Thamirys, or... I haven't seen it in Greek, so I don't know exactly where the accent is. But, um- But- ... but I think Thamurys probably sounds better

Dan Beecher ... Thanos I think is-

Dan McClellan Thanos

Dan Beecher ... her, her-

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Anyway, he's mad. He, uh... Under- understandably, you don't want... You know, you- you're making wedding plans. You're making plans-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... for the future.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then, uh, and then you find out that, that your lady, uh, is enamored of the idea of no sex forever. And- ... that doesn't sound awesome.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So he, he, he... Basically, he brings her to court. He takes her. He, he-

Dan McClellan Well, what, what I love is that he, he shows up and is like, "Hey, babe, what's going on here?" And she's just off in la-la land.

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan And, like, everybody is, is, like, breaking down in tears, uh, that they're just unconsolable because she's just like, "La, la, la." "Paul, celibacy." Um, and I, I, I think of, uh, when I think of Thamurys, I picture Prince Valium. Um- Go b- heck. Um, but yeah, he-

Dan Beecher You're welcome everybody that just yawned because Dan did that- ... uh, thing. Uh, all right. So, so he, Prince Valium brings, uh, brings all of the head dudes in, in town.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan Oh, I love, I love this line. Um, and he's like, "What's, what's wrong, babe? What's going on? Why do you sit thus? And what sort of feeling holds you distracted? Come back to your Thamurys and be ashamed."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Like, this, this-

Dan Beecher I did read that.

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher I was like, "I... What?"

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "Huh?"

Dan McClellan He's like, "Well, you got me there." Um- And then, uh, even, even her mom. Um, and, and oh yeah, we should, we should mention because, uh, I was like, "I wonder what, uh, where that name comes from," and, uh, and completely ignored that you said, "I think it's a, it's a shorter version of her mom's name."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher So The- Thecla, Thecla's mother's name is, uh- Theoclia ... Theoclia.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And I was like, "I think, I think those might be the same name." Thecla's just a nickname or a, a truncated version.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, uh, so it combines Theos with clios, which would be God and then, uh, glory or, or honor or something like that.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So the, um... W- we did it all for the glory of God.

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan Um, like a knight in shining armor from a long time ago.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Okay. Uh, we-

Dan McClellan Enough of that

Dan Beecher ... we, we don't have time to f- to fall into the, in- into the Peter Setara trap.

Dan McClellan So, um, and then, and then we get, uh, Demas and Hermogenes show up again.

Dan Beecher Uh-huh.

Dan McClellan And, and now I guess they've just had it with, with the, with the can't get no respect and, uh, because they go talk to, uh, Thamurys and they say, "Bring him before," um, or, "Bring Paul before the governor Castelius because he persuades the multitude to embrace the new teaching of, of the Christians." 'Cause Paul is, is the culprit.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "What's going on with my baby?" "Oh, this dude Paul is preaching, and she's enamored."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And they're like, "You should, you should totally, you should totally-

Dan Beecher Get him

Dan McClellan ... take him to court."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, so he does this. He, he, uh, rises up early in the morning, filled with jealousy and anger, uh, and went over with, rulers and officers and a great crowd with batons.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Because you, you, you can't have a riot without batons. Um-

Dan Beecher You gotta, you gotta, you gotta raise up some baton people.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Um-

Dan Beecher I like to imagine- ... like, at a parade, girls spinning batons. I'd-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh...

Dan McClellan You gotta get the retractable one, though- ... so you can go boink and, uh-

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah

Dan McClellan ... yeah. Um, and, and accuses Paul of deceiving the city of the Iconiums, "And especially my betrothed bride so that she will not have me." Um, and, and here I'm thinking of the antagonist in Titanic. "I was hoping you would come to me last night." Um, and, uh, she's not interested 'cause there's this kid who draws naked ladies. Um, and the whole crowd cried, "Away with the sorcerer, for he has misled all our wives." So here's, here's the threat. "Paul has taken our ladies, uh, away from us-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... with his, uh, his seductive, ascetic, celibate lifestyle."

Dan Beecher Right. Right. It is a different form of seduction, surely, uh, than, than we're used to, but yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher He's the weirdest Pied Piper of them all.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And we've got the w- the governor is kind of, uh, is kind of of two minds about this because, uh, Demas and Hermogenes are like, "Just say he's a Christian. That's illegal. That's enough. He'll, he'll die."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this governor's like, "Mm, slow your roll, gentlemen."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and goes to, to question Paul, and, and Paul obviously just goes off on, on his, his preaching rant.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and then, uh-

Dan Beecher But that short, bald, one e- unibrowed little dude- ... is compelling.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher He's a, he's a very compelling speaker.

Dan McClellan But he does get thrown into jail.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and then Thecla comes and-

Dan Beecher But not, not, not having been convicted yet.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher He was thrown into jail because, uh, because the, the guy, the, the head dude, the governor did not have time yet to fully question him.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So, so he's just in jail as-

Dan McClellan So this is like-

Dan Beecher ... as hold for a holding

Dan McClellan ... this is like ICE saying you're going to be pre-imprisoned.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Um, yes. For the crime of not listening to me. Uh, and Thecla, by night, she takes her bracelet, she gives them to the gatekeeper. You know, a little, um, little quid pro quo. Gets inside the prison- Sure ... and, uh, gives the jailer a silver mirror, and, uh, she's just got, like, a backpack full of junk that she's just, like-

Dan Beecher Full of, full of bribes. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher You gotta, you gotta have everything you got to bribe your way in.

Dan McClellan My bribe-out bag that, um, that I have, uh, by the door. And, uh, and she finds Paul just to go sit his, at his feet and just hear, uh, those golden words tumbling from his tongue. And, uh, her faith also increased, and she kissed his bonds, um, which has reference to his bonds of imprisonment.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and, and then obviously her family and Thamaris are, are... can't find her- Yeah ... so they're, uh, they're going through the, the streets. One of the gatekeeper's fellow slaves informed them that she had gone out by night. They examined the gatekeeper, who said to them, "She's gone to the foreigner in the prison." And they went and found her, so to say, chained to him by affection. And-

Dan Beecher By affection. There is so much innuendo in this, uh, moment. Yeah, this- She's kissing his, uh, bonds.

Dan McClellan Bonds, yes.

Dan Beecher She's chained to him by affection.

Dan McClellan But really what we're all about is none of that. We don't-

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah, exactly. We

Dan McClellan don't... Yeah. No hanky-panky here. Um, and, uh, they, they run out, and they incite the people 'cause if you can't convince your lady friend to, uh, stop, uh, groveling at the feet of some dude, the best thing to do is to start a riot.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, so Paul's gotta be brought before the tribunal. Uh, but Thecla was riveted to the place where Paul had sat whilst in prison, which, which seems odd. And, and I'm, I'm wondering if this is kind of a, a, a pilgrimage-y reference. Mm. 'Cause, you know, you, you have those spots in, in different parts of holy lands and places where it's like, "This was the spot where Jesus cooked the fish- " Mm ... and told Peter, 'Feed my sheep.'" Um, and, you know, you build a church around it.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so maybe, like, the spot where Paul sat maybe is supposed to be the place that people go to, to visit. And so this story is kind of, um, building a narrative around the pilgrimage to that site. Maybe that's what's going on here. I don't know. But she seems oddly enamored by the place where he sat.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan Um, so now we, we got big trouble, uh, in little Iconium, and, uh, scourges Paul, casts him out of the city, but decides to condemn Thecla to be burned.

Dan Beecher Yeah. 'Cause- Yeah ... she, she's, uh, naughty.

Dan McClellan And she, and as a lamb-

Dan Beecher Well, and, and it's not his idea either.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher It, it is h- it is her mom's idea.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher She's the one that screams out, "Burn her if she's not gonna marry. She's a bad girl." Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah. She weighs the same as a duck. Um- Yeah,

Dan Beecher exactly. It's a- Yeah ... it, that, which... That's a moment that I find kind of horrifying, but there you go.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well-

Dan Beecher Uh, her mom calls for her to get burnt.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, and here's the... I, I love this line, "Burn her who will not marry," in the midst of the theater, "that all the women who have been taught by this man may be afraid." So, so here we have that threatened patriarchy is, uh, is lashing out, uh, in anger. We need to, um... She needs to be made an example of.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, so we're gonna burn her, which it turns out doesn't work. As-

Dan Beecher Well, interestingly, yeah. They get the, they get the logs. They get her up on top. They set it on fire. It is going, and then she cr- By the way, she makes the sign of the cross as she gets up- Yes ... on top. And then, uh, God just dumps a deluge down on 'em. Well, it- Uh, sounds dangerous.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, some people are, like, washed away. And then, uh, it puts out the fire.

Dan McClellan It does say the, uh, "A great fire was blazing, but it did not touch her." Yeah. And then... Or it says, "For God, having compassion upon her, made an underground rumbling, and a cloud full of water and hail overshadowed the theater from above, and all its contents were poured out so that many were in danger of death, and the fire was put out, and Thecla saved." So, so this is one of those Paul's gone, and now we've got this, uh, public spectacle.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan That's gonna come up again and again. Um, but the spectacle has everybody gathered around to witness and is, is just jazzed about witnessing this woman being burned. Uh, and God just, uh, unleashes a, a deluge on the, on the fire to put it out. And there, and Paul and, uh, Onesiphorus are, are in a tomb somewhere fasting. Uh, and after many days had been spent in fasting, the children said to Paul, "We are hungry." Probably not the first time they said it, but this is the first time the narrative is mentioning it. Uh-

Dan Beecher Because Onesiphorus... Yeah. You take, you take your whole family, and you just leave everything behind. Uh- Yeah ... I think that's poor planning, if you ask me.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, uh, Paul takes his cloak and gives it to a child and says, "Sell this and buy some loaves and bring them." And while the kids were out trying to find, uh, trying to hawk this, uh, this cloak, um, he saw Thecla- One of my

Dan Beecher cloak. How many breads will you give me for one cloak? Yeah.

Dan McClellan It has only been worn by one weirdo. Um, s- they see Thecla, um, and said, "Thecla, uh, where are you going?" She said, "I have been saved from the fire, and I'm following Paul." And the child said, "Come, I shall take you to him, for he has been mourning for you and praying and fasting six days already." Uh, they come to the tomb. Paul is kneeling in prayer. Um, and, and he's actually praying that God will save her- ... from the fire-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, that it will not touch her, which is kind of a hint that, that maybe it was Paul's prayer that actually, uh, was the catalyst for the fire not touching Thecla. Um, and, and we get this, uh, this very doxological, uh, prayer. And Paul Caesar says, "Oh, God, who knows the heart, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, I praise you because you have speedily heard my prayer." And there was great love in the tomb as Paul and Onesiph- Onesiphorus and the others all rejoiced. So, um, so they, they reunited-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and it feels so good. And they had five loaves, and vegetables, and water, which, uh, yeah, nothing better for keeping down the urges.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and Thecla wants to, uh, shave her hair off and follow Paul, uh, everywhere he goes. And, and th- this was the weird line I, I thought, "Times are evil, and you are beautiful." And, uh- ... and I, I just was thinking, "The night is young, and you're so beautiful." Uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah, it, it does have this very interesting moment where it feels like Thecla's like, "I wanna be a man now." I would... Like, it's, it's this very interesting moment where she's like, "I'm gonna shave off my hair. We're gonna call me a man." It's a, it's a, it's a very trans, uh, interesting-

Dan McClellan Coded

Dan Beecher ... moment.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah, kind of a Begonia moment here.

Dan Beecher And it was unclear to me. I think, I, I, I guess what I read was that Paul says, "No, don't do that. You have to stay a woman."

Dan McClellan Well, it, yeah, the, it's a weird thing. He says, "I'm afraid lest another temptation come upon you worse than the first, and that you do not withstand it, but become mad after men."

Dan Beecher Apparently, if you cut your hair, you go boy-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... crazy.

Dan McClellan Yeah, 'cause so Thecla's like, "I, I've spent three days just staring at you, and, and then I came and, and stared at the place where you sat, and now I've been saved." And Paul's like, "Mm, your libido has not been- ... adequately defeated." So, um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... but and she says, "Give me the seal in Christ, and no temptation shall touch me." And Paul says, "Be patient. You shall receive the water."

Dan Beecher So the-

Dan McClellan Which-

Dan Beecher ... the seal in Christ, is she talking about baptism?

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yes, that is, uh, in, in the early, uh, Christian movement, uh, the seal was, was baptism. That was how you sealed- ... uh, yourself to Christ.

Dan Beecher And, and she is going to be baptized later on, and there will be seals involved. So it gets weird, you guys.

Dan McClellan And lions-

Dan Beecher Uh, we gotta get to that

Dan McClellan ... and tigers and bears. Yeah.

Dan Beecher 'Cause we're, we're, we're gonna run long if we're not careful.

Dan McClellan Oh, look at that.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan Okay

Dan Beecher ... so let's, uh, let's, let's plow in because she, she goes into another town.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, this is the town of Antioch? Yeah, I think Antioch, right? Uh- Uh,

Dan McClellan went to Antioch, yeah.

Dan Beecher And Alexander is a, is an influential citizen there. He sees her. She doesn't have her hair cut, so she's still pretty, and he's, like, into it and-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... decides to- And basically, like, kinda starts to molest her there in the street or whatever, and she's like, "No, no, no." And finally, he do- he doesn't take the hint. Finally, she tears his cl- clothes and knocks the crown off of his head and humiliates him.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And he is furious. And so he, uh, he basically takes her to the boys' club and says, "Hey, let's kill this lady." And everybody's on board with that. But not the women. The women are like, "No, no, don't do that."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But all the men are like, "Yeah, let's feed her to the, the critters."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "Let's get her in, in with all the wild animals."

Dan McClellan Yeah, the wild beasts. And, uh, and they bring out all these wild beasts. And inter- and, uh, Thecla is, um, stripped, received a girdle, was thrown into the arena.

Dan Beecher Yeah, I don't know what that... I mean, I don't know what I'm meant to imagine here. Is she, she's only in a girdle? She's o- she's... I don't know.

Dan McClellan I, I guess they're, they're protecting her. Like, the, the text makes a point of saying that her nudity, her nakedness was not seen later on.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah, so, so she's probably in something.

Dan McClellan And then, and then you have the, there's some more, um, this interesting gender dynamic where a female lion runs up and sits at her feet, and then fights off, uh, the other animals that are coming. There's a bear that runs up, but the lioness kills the bear. T- tore the bear to pieces according-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... to the text.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and then another lion comes up, and the lioness engages with that other lion, but then the lioness dies.

Dan Beecher Both-

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher Well, both lions die.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher They both die in that process.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So she is protected, uh, from bears and lions. But there's, there seem to be more beasts. We don't name what they are.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But some- but she holds out her hands. She, like, re- rebukes them in the name-

Dan McClellan She-

Dan Beecher ... of the Lord or whatever

Dan McClellan ... she, she prays, and then she turns around, and suddenly there's a large pit full of water.

Dan Beecher Yeah, she sees-

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher She sees the pond.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And she's like, "Oh, great. I'm gonna baptize myself."

Dan McClellan Yeah, and she says, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I baptize myself on my last day." Uh, and then when the women and the multitude saw it, they wept and said, "Do not throw yourself into the water." Even the governor shed tears because the seals- ... were to devour such beauty.

Dan Beecher They had vicious seals.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I've never heard of this.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher I mean, I've heard of the lions, I've heard of the bears, but I've never heard of, like, "Throw them to the seals."

Dan McClellan Yes. Th- the, the -

Dan Beecher The seals of doom

Dan McClellan ... let her death be drowned out by the honking of the seals. Um, and there's a-

Dan Beecher And the last thing she shall hear is, "Er, er, er."

Dan McClellan But the, the seals, having seen a flash of lightning, floated dead on the surface.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And there was around her a cloud of fire so that neither could the beast touch her, nor could she be seen naked. So she, she baptizes herself, having authority-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... "Of myself, I baptize, uh, myself." Um, and then they're like, "Uh, we got some bulls. Let's, let's try the bulls out."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the governor's like, "All right, give it a shot." And then they, they, they bound her by the feet between the bulls and put red-hot irons under their genitals so that they, being rendered more furious, might kill her.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan They rushed forward, but the burning flame around her consumed the ropes, and she was as if she had not been bound.

Dan Beecher Which I, I... My im- my initial thought was just like, "Well, if she was still burning flames, how did they even get the ropes on her, on her?" But they did.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher They managed it, uh, but, but she was, she was hunka, hunka burning love, and she r- those... And yeah, the ropes were gone, so she survived all of the aminals that-

Dan McClellan And then the-

Dan Beecher ... they threw at her

Dan McClellan ... the queen, who looked favorably upon Thecla when she showed up-

Dan Beecher Yeah ... uh- Like, literally adopted her-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, as her own daughter sort of thing

Dan McClellan ... faints, and they all say, "Well, the queen died." And the governor's like, "Pause." Um-

Dan Beecher Okay. Yeah. "We've lost a bunch of animals. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... the queen's gone. Maybe, maybe we shouldn't be killing this lady."

Dan McClellan Yeah, and then Alexander, the, the, uh, um, the, uh, dude that, that gets m- made fun of or-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... becomes a laughingstock, is like, "Uh, let's, let's stop doing this- ... 'cause we are gonna destroy this city, and if Caesar hears about this, I'm gonna be in so much trouble." So the governor calls Thecla over and says, "Who are you, and what is there about you that not one of the wild beasts touched you?" And she says, "I'm a servant of the living God, and as to what there is about me, I have believed in the Son of God in whom He is well pleased. That is why not one of the beasts touched me, for He alone is the goal of salvation and the basis of immortal life," and goes on this, um, this, uh, screed about, about why God has protected her.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "He ha- He who clothed me when I was naked among the beasts will in the day of judgment clothe me with salvation." The g- the governor brings garments to her. Um, and then the, the governor issues an edict. There's a lot of, there are a lot of edicts going on. Um, uh, "I release you to the pious Thecla," or, "I release to you..." He, he releases this edict to the people. "I release to you the pious Thecla, the servant of God." And the women shouted aloud and with one voice praised God so that the whole city was shaken by their voices. So it's mainly, it's the women who, uh, are ecstatic about this.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and then, uh, Tryphaena is the name of the queen. She's not dead. She comes, she comes to, uh, and, uh, decides, "Now I believe in the, in the resurrection." She says, "Come inside, and all that is mine I'll shall assign to you." Uh, she doesn't add, "Up to half my kingdom."

Dan Beecher No, no, she's-

Dan McClellan That's, that's only, that's only what the men do. The women are just like, "Eh, we'll talk about it." Um- And so Thecla rests for eight days instructing the queen on the word of God so that many of the maidservants believed, and there was great joy in the house.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and-

Dan Beecher Which means that Thecla, pretty effective preacher.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, she's, uh, she's, she's, at very least in that house, she's doing a good job.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher But she, uh, she, she's lo- she wants Paul.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher She wants to get back to Paul.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Back she goes. She finds him in Myrna, uh, and he, you know, he's, he's preaching the word. And she goes, "Hey, guess what? Uh, I got baptized." And he does not seem to question it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher He's just like, "Oh, oh, okay."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher 'Cause I think by now this is, this, this woman is oozing power.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher There is like... She's like, "You're not gonna question anything coming out of this woman." She's j-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... she's like, "By the way, I'm baptized now."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And like, "I didn't need you. I don't need any man. Uh, I did it." And, and he's like, "Awesome. That's great." Uh, and she's like, "And now..." And th- you know, it feels like there's this thing where sh- she's supposed to ask people, ask a man for permission to do whatever she wants to do, and she's like, "No. Uh, just so you know, I'm leaving."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "I'm going back to Iconium." And-

Dan McClellan And interestingly, um, and one thing I wanna point out is, uh, when, when she finds Paul and says, "Yeah, I, I've been baptized," Paul then hears everything that she has to say.

Dan Beecher Right. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan They go inside, and Paul basically sits enraptured while she narrates all this stuff, uh, that went on. So yeah-

Dan Beecher Great point

Dan McClellan ... there is, there is quite a, a role reversal here going on where, where the student has become the master in a sense. Yeah,

Dan Beecher yeah. Yeah. She is no longer a Padawan learner. She is a full Jedi at this point.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And she says, "I'm going to Iconium." And Paul says, "Go and teach the word of God."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Which-

Dan McClellan And, uh-

Dan Beecher ... that feels like a big deal.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Like, she, like, like basically she is now a full-on apostle.

Dan McClellan Yeah. She-

Dan Beecher She is a preacher. Yeah.

Dan McClellan She is a peer of Paul now.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Paul can't tell her what to do. She has her own money.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and, and she goes back home. Um, Thamaris obviously is dead. So her, her former beau, um, doesn't say why, but, but he's dead, and her mother's alive. And remember, her mother is kind of the one who started all this. Uh, but she calls her mother and said, "Theoclia, my mother, can you believe that the Lord lives in Heaven? For if you desire wealth, the Lord will give it to you through me. Or if you desire your child, behold, I am standing beside you." And then we've got the, the briefest of sentences. "And having thus testified, she went to Seleucia and enlightened many by the word of God. Then she rested in a glorious sleep." So yeah, basically like then she went and did her thing and then she died.

Dan Beecher Yeah. She was-

Dan McClellan But, yeah.

Dan Beecher So, uh, really fascinating. Uh, very much a, um, a feminist triumph. Uh-

Dan McClellan Not, not a longstanding one.

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan But at least for the time, yeah. The, in the 2nd century, uh, this was, no doubt this was a very popular text. Uh, you know, I, I, I think we've mentioned it before on the show. When you get to the end of the 1st century, beginning of the 2nd century, Christianity is, like, mainly comprised of, uh, women and slaves. That's how some- a Roman author characterizes Christianity, a religion, uh, or a, a movement of women and slaves.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, and so the, in the 2nd century, no doubt this would've been a very popular text, but it didn't take too long for the patriarchy then to say, "That's cute. Deleted."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, "Your, your services are no longer n- re- needed here. We're going in another direction." And, uh, and yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. And but it is very in line with sort of the Pauline... Like, again, the, the pin that I wanna pull out is that Paul in, you know, when Paul greeted Junia and-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... and stuff, like Paul was down for women leaders in the church.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And it isn't until the pseudo-Pauline, uh, epistles where we start to get, "A woman shall not preach in the church and must-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... remain quiet," and all of that sort of thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So-

Dan McClellan Which, which again, maybe that's, that's, uh, happening in response to some of these traditions, uh, as they, as they, uh, exist in the text as it, uh, has been preserved down to us or maybe other stories. But yeah, you do get a pushback against that, and, and also pushing back against the whole celibacy thing because that's not good for the men. Uh, because it's not like they have the option of, of just doing it with each other anymore-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... 'cause Paul has taken that from them as well. So, um, yeah, they're not gonna take matters into their own hands, um-

Dan Beecher Oh, Paul

Dan McClellan ... because that would be also bad.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, so yeah. I, but it's, it's such a fascinating story, and, and fantastical events that, that, um, you know, are, are obviously, uh, legendary, all these miracles. The whole, all the crowd being like, "Kill the witch." "Okay, she's alive. Yay."

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and, uh, uh, everybody changes positions so, so readily.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, but yeah, a, a fascinating story, and you can find, uh, the, the text of the Acts of Paul and Thecla and, and scholarship on it all over the place. Uh, if you haven't read it before, highly recommend checking it out to just get an idea of what, what kind of stories were in circulation in the 2nd century CE. This is before the Gospels. This is probably right around the time that the Gospels were getting named.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Like, this is very early in the history of Christianity, but, uh, but we got Paul and Thecla, um, roaming around, uh, doing their thing, and, uh, it's fun stuff.

Dan Beecher Love it. Well, that's it for, uh, for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in, everybody. If you'd like to become a part of helping make this show go, you can become one of our patrons over on patreon.com, where you can get early access to an ad-free version of the audio feed as well as a, uh, a, uh, weekly bonus content that we do just for our patrons. That's over there. So please go over there and consider becoming one of our patrons. We always appreciate that. Thanks so much to Roger Goudy for editing the show, and thanks to all y'all for tuning in.