The Apocryphal Books of Maccabees

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same, all in a pleasing baritone. And how are things today, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things are good. I'm j- I'm having a good time. I love that you said pleasing baritone, and then the first thing out of my mouth was, "Things are good." Went Mickey Mouse on that.

Dan McClellan Well, uh, d- pleasing baritone with a... I, I am, I keep hearing a slight lisp because- Hmm ... of the, the dental trays that I have in my mouth, and as I am still very conscious of it. Although I've had some, some, some people, uh, message me or text me and be like, "Hey, I can't tell a difference." I can, I can tell a difference. Hopefully, if you can tell a difference, you will not let me know about it.

Dan Beecher You might have a little bit of splashy sibilance. Uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah, a little bit ...

Dan Beecher but, but I think it, I, I think it's all g- it's all good, uh, in the neighborhood. Uh, we should, we should talk about what we're gonna talk about today.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Because we are diving into, uh, history's mysteries-

Dan McClellan Dun, dun, dun ...

Dan Beecher with the Maccabean Revolt. It's something that, uh, and this, and this, the next segment we're gonna release, uh, they're things that you and I have talked about, have mentioned along the way- Mm-hmm ... as we've done this, uh, this here show of ours.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And you've briefly explained what they are, but I ne- it never sank in for me. And so I'd like to learn more about it and really, and really dive in. Yeah. So, uh, this, this time we're just, we're gonna be doing the, uh, the Maccabean Revolt. So let's get, let's get rolling with History's Mysteries. All right. So it's the, uh, it's, I said it, it's the Maccabean Re- Revolt. Um- Yes ... uh, this, this is something that, you know, the Maccabees were never in my Bible growing up.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Uh, First and Second Maccabees, right? Right. There's two of them?

Dan McClellan Well, there- Oh ... there are, um, I think there are seven books of Maccabees, seven or eight, as well as the Ethiopic Maccabean, which are named after the Maccabees, but are completely different texts.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But the, the two, there are two that are in the apocrypha, and then- Right ... there are two more that are in, like, an expanded apocrypha, and then there are l- like, four others that are usually either, um, in some Syriac or Arabic or Greek traditions, but are not usually, um, recognized by, um, most Christians or, or Jewish groups. But- Wow ... but m- most folks know First and Second Maccabees, yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Well, most Catholic folks.

Dan McClellan No, well, yeah. I was gonna say. And that, and that was my first exposure to the books of the Maccabees 'cause, uh, when I was serving an LDS proselytizing mission in Uruguay, um, I was gifted by somebody a, um, a Spanish translation of the Bible, a Catholic translation, so it had the apocrypha, and then a Spanish Bible dictionary, and I just, I devoured both.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan And I particularly, I was fascinated by the apocrypha 'cause these were texts that just were not in the Bible that I had not grown up with, but at least- Yeah ... become churched.

Dan Beecher Into.

Dan McClellan That was difficult for me to say. Churched, um, into. So-

Dan Beecher Yeah ... um,

Dan McClellan but First and Second Maccabees were fascinating because it was, it was a history that I'd never heard before, although it, I could tell that it overlapped with traditions I knew about, such as Hanukkah- Uh-huh ... which is based on, uh, a story from Maccabees. So- Right ... I just found it fascinating. But, um, but yeah, to, to understand what's going on though, we've gotta go before the Maccabees. We've gotta- Oh ... um, cast your mind back, if you will, to, uh, the Diadochi, and, um, uh, you know that old tale from the, the sea. Uh, so, uh- ... when, when Alexander the Great dies, he has, uh, managed to conquer, uh, most of the known world up to the Indus River and has this huge kingdom and drinks himself to death in Babylon or something. Uh, and then-

Dan Beecher He lived the dream, is what you're saying.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah, yeah. He lived the dream. And then, uh, that leaves a gigantic kingdom without a clear, um, or at least without a respected, uh, line of succession.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so basically what happens is all of the generals that are leading the different parts of his army basically plant a flag and say, "This is mine. I make this," and-

Dan Beecher They, uh, they s- sort of subdivide the, the kingdom and- Yes ... and just-

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, um-

Dan Beecher Everybody takes a piece.

Dan McClellan Yes. And for folks who are living in the Holy Land, they are right at the contested zone between two of the biggest of these territories.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, and this is, uh, the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic kingdoms. Okay. And so these are rulers who, um, are, are fighting over this territory, and it kinda goes back and forth a little bit. And we recently talked about, uh, the, um, the Letter of Aristeas and the origins of the Septuagint.

Dan Beecher Yes.

Dan McClellan And that was, uh, based on, uh, Alexandria, where for a time the Seleucids, uh, held sway. But, uh, o- one of the things that happens is the Seleucids come in and, and they're governing in, in and around Judea for a while, and you have Hellenistic culture is kind of taking over. They come in and they're like, "This is how we dress now. This is the food that we eat. This is the, these are the clothes that we wear. You know, this is how we leave the skin on our genitals," and- ... and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, and the locals are, are kind of like, "Ew." But- You do have a lot of folks who are in the, the upper echelons of society who can see the writing on the wall, and they understand that, "Hey, we need to kind of integrate if we want to, um, if we wanna, you know, have, uh, livable lives." And so- Go ahead.

Dan Beecher My, sorry, my understanding is that, uh, while they were sort of under the Seleucid Empire's, uh, purview, they sh- they were still allowed quite a bit of autonomy.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher They were still all- th- like, it was still, their rulers were still allowed to rule the area, uh, and stuff. But, like, that's always, that's always a tenuous position.

Dan McClellan Exactly. It's always the whim of the overlords. Could, uh, you know, the, the winds of change, uh, might be blowing in another direction, uh, at any moment.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so you, you've got a lot of folks who wanna take advantage of the opportunities provided by, uh, this vast network, uh, economically and, and all this kind of stuff. And so there's, there's a little, uh, little bit of waning of some of the, uh, Torah observance and some of the practices. You get, uh, people like, "Hey, we should have a gymnasium." That's kind of like, uh, you know, that's like getting an NFL football team. You're on the map now.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, but, you know, you've gotta, if you go participate in, in the gymnasium, you gotta do so in the nude, and, you know, you've got, uh, k- kind of a conspicuous, uh, uh, handicap, uh, one might say.

Dan Beecher I was kicked out of my gymnasium for doing that. That's-

Dan McClellan Yeah, well, things- ...

Dan Beecher that's not fair ...

Dan McClellan things have changed. Um, and, and, uh, you basically get this internal conflict between the Hellenizers, the ones who are like, "We should integrate. We should reform our cul- our culture to be in agreement with theirs," and the more traditionalists who are like, "No, we've got to observe our laws and rules, and we cannot integrate." And so there, it's a bit of a, um, you know, there's some insularity there. They're not quite separatists, but they're, they're definitely, uh, not letting their kids go and play with, uh, with the Hellenizers.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan So we've got some internal conflict, and then the winds of change, change.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan As is their, their wont, although I've been, I've been ridiculed that, that it's should be pronounced as is their want. So, um-

Dan Beecher Well, then how do you separate the two? You- One's with an O, and one's with an A. Come on.

Dan McClellan Um, and we get Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who, uh, accedes to Seleucid rule around 175 BCE. And

Dan Beecher he- Is he named Antiochus just because the, the head, the, the, the seat of s- the Seleucid power was in Antioch? I believe.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher I, I read that it was in Antioch, and I just thought Antiochus, that just... Is he named after the place?

Dan McClellan I mean, it, it certainly sounds like it's related. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head which direction that relationship- Okay ... uh, flows. But he-

Dan Beecher Well, so- some listener is going either, "Yes, obviously," or, "No." Some, some listener knows. Anyway, go on.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and we have accounts of, of what happened because of Antiochus's, uh, ostensible desire to kind of mitigate the influence of, of Jewish conventions and traditions. Was, was tired of these people being their own, doing their own thing.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And so accord- And, and our, our sources, our main sources for this are, like, 1 and 2 Maccabees, 'cause they are-

Dan Beecher Oh, wow ...

Dan McClellan they are considered, um, 1 Maccabees more so than 2 Maccabees, but to, to some degree 2 Maccabees as well. They are considered to be pretty historical.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And even, even Josephus is relying on at least 1st Maccabees in, in parts of, of his retelling of, of that history, which is more recent than the, the biblical history that he's retelling. But, but basically, it seems that Antiochus IV, uh, banned circumcision, banned Sabbath observance, banned things like Torah study- Okay ... and then apparently, uh, tried to repurpose the Jerusalem Temple, uh, so that there could be, uh, Greek cults, um, doing their thing in the temple. And then we also have in the, in this time period, you have, uh, the high p- priesthood is kind of, uh, that's the, that's the main thing. That's the big leagues. And you have com- competing high priests, and they're starting to use, they're try- starting to forge political alliances.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And the high priesthood is something that is going to be, um, an installation of the Seleucid, um, rule rather than something that's hereditary, something that is, uh, internal. And so there begins to be a lot more friction, and the Hellenizers find themselves in, in kind of an unfortunate position, and the traditionalists are now finding themselves, uh, more directly under the boot of, uh, the Seleucid Empire, but now ready to fight back.

Dan Beecher Do you get the sense that, uh, Antiochus was, uh, was, wa- was, was Antiochus trying to do something, uh, to, to sort of calm the, uh, the tension between the Hellenizers and the, and the traditionalists, or was he just being a jerk? Was he just like, "We're, I'm, we're just going full Hellenizing- Yeah ... and you guys, you guys need to just do what I say," sort of?

Dan McClellan I, I think both of the Books of Maccabees present him as kind of just being a jerk, but, but certainly, and, and the-

Dan Beecher I mean, they would, wouldn't they? Like- Yeah ... like considering the perspective from which they're being written- Yeah ... they have, they have a very distinct perspective. Do we have any Seleucid, like, documentation of this-

Dan McClellan Yeah, I'm- ...

Dan Beecher from their side?

Dan McClellan I'm, I'm trying to think. Nothing, nothing springs to mind.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, but I do, um... Let me think. And, hmm- I'm, I'm, uh, you know, there, there's some archeological data from, from some of the sites and cities and things like that.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan But, but textual stuff, apart from maybe some brief inscriptions just letting us know who was where-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... I don't, I don't think we have anything that represents the Seleucid side of the story.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan But the book of I Maccabees and the book of II Maccabees are also quite different in their kind of ideological bent.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan 'Cause, 'cause Maccabees is, is more like, uh, let's, uh, it's trying to tell the story as, in as historical a way as the author is able to, which is, you know, it, it's still not Herodotus, but it is, it's not... II Maccabees, 'cause II Maccabees is more dramatical. It's, it's more, um, rhetorical. You've got martyrdoms, and you've got speeches, and you've got miracles and things like this. So-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... uh, and, and there's a degree to which, uh, I Maccabees is also more about political alliances. Uh, it's not talking about God as much, and it's, I, I w- it is ending with, uh, trying to prop up the legitimacy of the Hasmonean dynasty, which is where this is all headed. This is going to end up with the establishment of the Hasmonean, or the Hasmonean, uh, you know, you, you will hear it pronounced two different ways, uh, dynasty, which would be when Judaism kind of is autonomous and free-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... once again. And that would last for, for a handful of decades. Whereas II Maccabees is not so much about, it's not so much a political, national, um, manifesto as it is talking about a, a religious and a moral struggle, uh, where we get these, these famous stories of the mother and her seven sons and, and representing Antiochus as, uh, basically Satan. Um, so-

Dan Beecher Wow

Dan McClellan ... so they're, they're also not on the same page in that regard. And, and I Maccabees was probably written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. We only have it in Greek. I don't think there's anything from the Dead Sea Scrolls that preserve like a, like a Hebrew fragment or anything like that.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan I'm pretty sure of that. Um, but, uh-

Dan Beecher Well, we sh- we should finish the story because we, we-

Dan McClellan Yeah, we gotta finish the story

Dan Beecher ... we, we haven't actually gotten to the revolt yet.

Dan McClellan So, um, anyway, we do, we have this, uh, priest who shows up, Mattathias, and he manages to, um... I- i- in the story, he's supposed to perform a, a, uh, a pagan sacrifice, and he refuses and then kills the guy who's trying to force him to do it-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... the, the official from the Seleucid Empire. And he and his sons flee into the hills and call, you know, all the, the faithful rebels to him, and his son Judah takes, uh, becomes the main general, uh, Judah Maccabee, Judas Maccabeus, a- and they lead this kind of guerrilla warfare campaign against the Seleucids. And I wanna say this is 167 BCE. And, uh, and, you know, the, the battles go back and forth, and, and around 164, that's when the rebels manage to capture Jerusalem, and then we have the rededication of the temple. Because meanwhile, the Seleucids have been desecrating the temple. They've gotta rededicate it, and we have the famous story about how the oil that was only supposed to last for one day lasted for eight days, which allowed them to, uh, do the rededication of the temple, and thus the, we have the celebration of Hanukkah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, the, the fighting continues. Uh, what, taking the temple back doesn't end the battle. In fact, I, I wanna say it continues on until, um, like the 140s. 'Cause it, it goes back and forth. The Seleucids manage to take back over some territory. Uh, you have a bit of autonomy within Judea from late 150s to, like, 141 BCE, and then you have, uh, a high priest appointed in 141 BCE who, uh, institutes the Hasmonean kingdom. And b- and basically, this is where they declare independence from the Seleucids. And so at this point, you have, you basically have a, an independent Judean kingdom all over again. Now, and everybody knows we've been waiting for hundreds of years-

Dan Beecher Right, right

Dan McClellan ... for an independent Judean kingdom to be reestablished, and so this seems-

Dan Beecher Because we haven't, we haven't had that since the, uh, the, what's it called? Sin- S- Uh.

Dan McClellan Since the Babylonian exile?

Dan Beecher The exile.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Thank you. That, uh... Man. Don't, don't turn 50. Suddenly you can't think- ... of words anymore.

Dan McClellan Um, and at this poi- And, and something that's interesting, and one of the reasons that a lot of, uh, scholars think that the books of I and II Maccabees were probably written fairly close to what's going on, is because they treat the Romans as allies, and the Romans were allies, uh, for a while, until 63 BCE, when a general named Pompey annexes Judea and basically comes in and says, "This is ours now." And so the, the, the Hasmonean dynasty kingdom lasts from 141, I think, BCE down to 63 BCE. So you got almost 80 good years, uh, of an independent Judean kingdom, which was also characterized by a lot of infighting and, uh-

Dan Beecher Sure

Dan McClellan ... a lot of fractured, um, alliances and things like that. And, and this is also the context for ... uh, the retreat of the Essene population to Qumran.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan The real separatists. And, and there's an argument there, I think the majority of scholars would probably say that one of their main beefs was that they don't believe the Hasmonean, um, priestly line has a legitimate claim to the priesthood.

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan Uh, that they, they are not, uh... Because the, the, the palace and the temple were supposed to be separate, and so this kingdom was established, uh, based on the conflation of the two. This, this one family is gonna take over rule of both.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, um-

Dan Beecher So, so the, so the, the, the high priests at the temple are now the rulers of the people as well.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, um, and so this is considered a no-no by, uh, by these traditionalists who run off to, um, to Qumran.

Dan Beecher So

Dan McClellan they're, they're-

Dan Beecher And, and to be clear, the, for those who didn't catch onto this, the Essenes in Qumran were the ones who had, who, who tucked away the Dead Sea Scrolls that we found.

Dan McClellan Cor- Correct. For, mostly, yeah. It, it's, it's a lot more complicated than that. But yeah, there's, there, there... These texts are probably being brought in from, from a variety of places for a variety of reasons, and it- it's probably different groups over the centuries who are, are, um, stuffing them in these caves. But, but yeah.

Dan Beecher I think it's just one guy who collected them all- ... and just s- put them in his attic, and then they, they found them. Anyway, uh, okay, so we have, we, so we've, we've gotten rid of the sort of the Greeks, uh, the Hellenists, the whatever, and now Rome's encroaching, uh, coming from the other side, I guess.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and, and initially Rome is, is friendly toward, uh, the Hasmonean dynasty. So there's, there, there's kind of a, a, a little brother, big brother, uh, thing going on there where, uh, they're friendly, and this is why the scholars think that, uh, First and Second Maccabees were written before 63 BCE, because Rome is treated as more of an ally than an enemy. If-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... these were written after then, uh, it would be hard for the authors to, uh, represent Rome as friendly, uh, and, and not as, uh, ultimately the enemies to this, this new kingdom that was being set up.

Dan Beecher Ju- I, I... Sorry, I'm just gonna process one thing really quickly.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher The Seleucid Empire still exists. It just doesn't extend through Judah. Is that right, or?

Dan McClellan Y- correct.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, although I'm not sure, uh, when the, the Seleucids are not gonna last for too much longer. Uh, I think they're... Unless, do they? I think that, uh, 63 BCE might have been the end of, uh, the Seleucid Empire as well.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Yeah. I think, 'cause I, I think the whole Seleucid Empire is part of that annexation.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Um, in fact, let me, uh, take a look real quick. Um, yeah, the Seleucid dynasty ends. It's dissolved, uh, around 64 BCE. The- they're a rump state. They're occupying a small part of Syria, and then the Roman Republic annexes them in 64 BCE under Pompey the Great. So i- it sounds like the, Rome was like, "Take care of the Seleucids. Okay, now they're out of the way. Let's take care of the Hasmoneans."

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Uh, so one by one, the dominoes fall. So, uh, yeah, the, the Seleucid were still around between 141 and 64 BCE, uh, but they don't, they can't outlast Rome.

Dan Beecher Those Romans.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, and this is, the, the Maccabean Revolt is also likely the context for the main apocalyptic eschatological layers of the Book of Daniel, which is also primarily about, um, the Seleucid, uh, Empire, Antiochus IV, IV Epiphanes, and only it's probably written, uh, m- long before First and Second Maccabees because they're still in the thick of it.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And the Book of Daniel is, i- imagines that God is going to intervene and overthrow Antiochus IV Epiphanes, which would suggest that Antiochus IV Epiphanes has not yet been defeated, or is not-

Dan Beecher Right, right

Dan McClellan ... gone, is, is still in charge of the Seleucid Empire when these, when these, uh, prophecies are being written. And th- and this is the funny thing about these prophecies. People are like, "Oh, they're just so accurate that, that scholars just, uh, said there's no way on Earth they're, they're real because, you know, prophecy's not real." And the reality is that no, they're inaccurate. They start to get more and more accurate to the point where it's very clear that this is an eyewitness, and then they go back to being entirely inaccurate once the account says, "And then God showed up."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, which, you know, the best way to account for how that can be is that they're being written by someone who's in this specific time period right before they say God showed up, and they're, you know, the, the stuff that just happened, they can represent very accurately. The stuff that happened two centuries ago, eh, they're a little fuzzy on.

Dan Beecher Right, right.

Dan McClellan Um, but then, you know, the stuff from their own day, yeah, remarkably accurate, and then the stuff that's in their future, remarkably inaccurate, which is, which is precisely what we see. So, um, so the, uh, the abomination that makes desolation, that is, you know, is gonna stand in the temple and all that kind of stuff, that is supposed to be representative of Antiochus IV Epiphanes taking over the temple and desecrating it, using, uh, pagan offerings, uh, on the altar to de- desecrate the temple. So-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... so when, when people talk about Daniel and, you know, the, the 70 weeks and all that kind of stuff- Uh, that all culminates in, in the Maccabean Revolt. That's when w- what that is looking forward to. Uh, so it is, it is not about Jesus. It's certainly not about- ... the 21st century. So, um, th- that's another source that people use for trying to understand what was going on. Only, it's such a difficult source to use because we're taking these eschatological prophecies, and we're, and we're trying to tease out what actual historical events might be going on behind them and might be inspiring these, uh, these prophecies that are so loosely connected, uh, to what's going on, where they're using coded language to try to refer to, um, to these events. So, and then you also have, uh, there is an argument to make that part of, uh, First Enoch, uh, particularly the Animal Apocalypse, might be ending with Antiochus IV Epiphanes as well.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Which would, which would put it around the same time period. So we, there seems to be a lot of apocalyptic, eschatological, Greco-Roman period Jewish literature that was generated, uh, in reaction to, uh, the Maccabean Revolt. So it, it was a very literarily generative, uh, event.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, and also something that cost, uh, thousands and thousands of people their livelihoods and their very lives, so, uh, but it's, it's such a central event to so much of what ha- w- the transition between, uh, Greco-Roman period Judaism and, uh, you know, what would come after that. That-

Dan Beecher Well, it's, uh, it's funny because we say Greco-Roman period Judaism. We say that-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... I, you know, you say that all the time, but it does seem like it's Greco period Jew- Judaism-

Dan McClellan Yeah, before

Dan Beecher ... and then Roman Judaism, and it, it, uh, it seems like, it seems almost weird to combine them considering how- I mean, it, yeah, it feels like these-

Dan McClellan It's a pretty straight pivot. Yeah, there's a clear line between the two.

Dan Beecher And there's a, and yeah. Man, the, the, and there's these, this group of people in the middle just getting buffeted by the waves-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... of, uh,

Dan McClellan yeah. And, and this is also the, the period that's probably responsible for the rise of ideologies about resurrection-

Dan Beecher Hmm

Dan McClellan ... and ideology, ideologies about heaven and hell. Because a lot of s- scholars think it's, it's in this time period that they're contemplating, "Why is all this bad stuff happening to God's people, and why are we not seeing God's enemies being punished?"

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And, uh, and this is when, you know, a lot of the literature that's being generated is starting to contemplate the possibility that this is being, um, offloaded to the afterlife, where you wait until the afterlife to get your, uh, just desserts-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... whether for good or for bad, and that's why First Enoch has, uh, stuff about, uh, you know, postmortem divine punishment, as well as postmortem divine reward. So a very, very, um, formulative, uh, period in the history of Judaism. And there are scholars who argue that the Hasmonean Kingdom, the rise of the Hasmonean Kingdom, might have been the catalyst for the actual formalization of the Pentateuch and its, uh, formal kind of publication, publicization, maybe even enforcement. Uh, this, this might be what actually, uh, results in the, the rise of what we can refer to as Judaism as an identity. Because, uh, it would be, you know, you've got a new Hasmonean Kingdom. We've restored what we have not had since the end of the, uh, the seventh century BCE, the beginning of the sixth century BCE. We've got all these texts from that time period. Let's now use this as our charter myth, as our, um, kind of this is the, the tradition that establishes our identity as a new actual kingdom. We've done, we've restored things, and we're look- we're reading the literature that was written hundreds of years ago saying, "Oh, it's gonna be so great when we restore things." And maybe the, the Hasmonean priests and, and rulers were like, "That's now, so let's, let's get this literature out there, and that will help, uh, shore up the identity of our people as an independent, autonomous kingdom." There's an argument to make that, that that's, um, when finally everybody becomes aware of, uh, the Pentateuch and all the laws and, and all of these writings. Because it's in that time period, it's in the second century BCE, that suddenly you start to see evidence of widespread concern for purity.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And you start to see awareness of, "Oh, we're not supposed to eat pork." And you begin to see literature where they're suddenly debating, "Well, how do we reconcile, um, you know, parts of Deuteronomy with parts of Exodus, where they w- they, they don't fit well together?" And, and so I think there's, I, I'm interested in seeing where the, the discussion goes, but I think there's probably a good case to make that this is when the, the scriptures actually become a public document and, and a public force within the life of Judeans. Um, so, so yeah, this is a pivotable, pivotable, pivotal, this is a pivotal, uh, period, uh-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... in the history of Judaism and would give rise to a lot of the Messianic, uh, stuff that, that gives rise to Christianity as well, so.

Dan Beecher Crazy.

Dan McClellan Don't, yeah, don't, can't, uh, you can't be sleeping on the Maccabean Revolt. The-

Dan Beecher Yeah, uh, I mean, it, it's, it, now it seems very s- we, we, we've run out of time for this segment, but it just seems like we should be talking about why, uh, you know, Martin Luther decided that these books shouldn't be in- ... the Bible anymore, 'cause it just seems like that's- If nothing else, at least it's got a historical grounding, you know?

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, there's-

Dan Beecher That's something, that's something, that's worth something right there.

Dan McClellan There's just one quick story before we, um-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... before we end the, end the segment. Uh, there's a part in 2 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees chapter 12, uh, pretty sure it's verse 42. But, um, Judah, uh, Maccabee and, and his troops, they come upon some of their, um, their other soldiers, and they're dead.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And they find that they have contraband on them. "Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen." So they, they have pagan, um, contraband on them. And then it says, "So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge who reveals, uh, the things that are hidden, and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a purification offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead." So this is, this is basically, uh, an endorsement of, or at least an acknowledgment that the, the people who were in charge of the Maccabean Revolt believed that they could offer posthumous sacrifices in the Je- Jerusalem temple that would, um, result in forgiveness of the sins of dead people.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan So proxy ordinances for the dead, forgiveness of sins after you've died, um-

Dan Beecher Well, and, and the resurrection of those people.

Dan McClellan Yes. And so they, they've already died. They're gonna be resurrected. Or, or at this point, maybe the resurrection is only if you're righteous.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so they're, they're making the offering on the behalf of already dead people in the hopes that they can turn their fate around-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... even after death. And that is one of the things that I know, um, Martin Luther didn't like about-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... at least 2 Maccabees.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Whether that's, that's the reason for the rejection of the whole apocrypha, I don't know that we can go that far. But, but definitely that text was something that rubbed Martin Luther the wrong way.

Dan Beecher Fascinating.

Dan McClellan Sounded too much like purgatory.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, and also, um, like, you know, "Give us the money and, and you can, uh- ... you can get free. Give us the money and you can even get your, your deceased ancestors out of spirit prison." So...

Dan Beecher Yeah. Fascinating. All right. Well, I love it. You, you love to see it. That's it for today. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you would like to become a part of helping this show go, and also potentially gain access to our after party, this week's after party, we discuss things like Neil Lightfoot, Porky's II, and The Tiger King.

Dan McClellan Nice.

Dan Beecher So I don't see how you can go wrong- ... uh, checking that out. Uh, but that is exclusively for our patrons, so head on over to patreon.com/DataOverDogma if you would like to be one of those. Uh, thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show. Thanks to JJ for being our producer, and we will talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.