Pay Your Tithing!

Dan McClellan And I see this all the time. "Oh, that's situational. That's Jesus giving specific guidance to one individual person. That's not generalizable.

Dan Beecher That's not universalizable."

Dan McClellan It's like, I kind of think it is.

Dan Beecher Why would it be in there if it weren't?

Dan McClellan Yeah. Jesus didn't watch him walk away, and then was like, "That wasn't for any of y'all. That was just for him."

Dan Beecher And Jesus said unto him, "This is just for you. Everybody else can turn away for a second."

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

Dan Beecher And I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And you are listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things, Dan?

Dan Beecher Things are good. I have decided to donate 10% of this podcast to something. A storehouse.

Dan McClellan Well, 10% of zero is not a lot, so- I know.

Dan Beecher Well, ones and zeros, really. What is a podcast, really? How does one even quantify such a thing? Yeah, I don't know.

Dan McClellan I certainly don't know. I just got back from Dragon Con.

Dan Beecher Yes, sir.

Dan McClellan Some folks saw me there. It's always a fun experience when people recognize me out, and then- Some of our listeners.

Dan Beecher And I just got back from a podcasting convention where I met some of our listeners. So we are both inundated with meeting some of y'all- Yeah ... out there in the world.

Dan McClellan It's been lovely. I appreciate getting to hear from y'all and hearing about how much you prefer Dan's witty banter to my own.

Dan Beecher Although I saw some- I don't think a single person said that.

Dan McClellan I saw a funny, somebody was commenting like, "Ooh, what do you think, Dan? Well, Dan, this is what I think, Dan," and kind of making fun of that. And it stung a little bit, but that was on YouTube or something like that.

Dan Beecher Listen, we didn't name ourselves, you guys.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's not our fault.

Dan McClellan Just- And when we were talking about names for the podcast, we were like, "D and D."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Dan and Dan." We were coming up with- Data Over Dogma with Dan and Dan.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Dan does data, and Dan does dogma. Dan does doodle-de-doo.

Dan McClellan So we were trying to make fun of ourselves a little bit, too.

Dan Beecher But- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan that's entirely beside the point.

Dan Beecher Yes, exactly.

Dan McClellan We've got a show to do, evidently.

Dan Beecher Oh, yeah, we do. And I hinted earlier at what we're going to be talking about, because we're finally going to do, and a bunch of our listeners have written in to ask us to talk about this.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher We're going to talk about tithing.

Dan McClellan Okay.

Dan Beecher So that's going to be our first segment, and then we're going to keep it in the financial realm- Mm-hmm ... and get into the story in Acts of Ananias, and a name that you and I had quite a bit of discussion, and both looked up how we think it's normally pronounced because- ... I've only read it, you've only read it, but you've read it in multiple languages.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So Ananias. Oh, no, Ananias.

Dan McClellan Ananias. And- In the Greek, it is Sapphira.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So, or Sapphira. But we have found Sapphira and Sapphira as alternative pronunciations.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So.

Dan Beecher I'm going with Sapphira.

Dan McClellan Yeah, I like Sapphira.

Dan Beecher It's just so much nicer- Yeah ... to my ear.

Dan McClellan But that comes from an Aramaic name, Shapira, where the P is definitely a hard P because it's- Okay ... doubled, so. So anyway- Anyway.

Dan Beecher However you pronounce it- Yeah ... it's both right and wrong. Whatever you say, it's both right.

Dan McClellan Anyway- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher let's get to our first segment. What's that? Okay, so for What's That, we're talking about tithing, as we said before.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher And tithing is a thing that seems on its surface like an obvious... If you are a church-going Christian especially, it feels like you know what tithing is. I did look it up just because I wanted to see what, because my upbringing is in the LDS faith.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher And so my experience with tithing was, I was told 10% of my gross income was to go to the church.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And I've seen other churches make the same claim, 10% of gross. I've heard some say 10% of a net income.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So these are all interesting questions. Although somehow I'm going to guess, and I haven't done a lot of research. I've poked around in the Bible, but you know more about it than I do. I'm going to guess that's not what we're going to find when we go digging in the Bible.

Dan McClellan We're actually going to find a few different things.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because it's not consistent, and attempts to render it consistent end up getting into trouble in a variety of different ways. And so a big question has to do with the fact that this practice kind of develops when there are certain conventions and frameworks in operation within a society, and those conventions and frameworks are no longer in operation. And so how do you reconfigure this practice to fit these later frameworks?

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And there's also an argument to make based on the New Testament that this is something that doesn't apply to Christians, and that's certainly an argument that has been made by an awful lot of people. But we're going to get to that.

Dan Beecher I think there's a lot of Christians who will be very surprised to hear that.

Dan McClellan Yeah. That's one thing about Christians, is they're always surprised to hear that there are people who think other things.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, let's dig into what it is we're talking about.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher What is tithing?

Dan McClellan So tithing comes from a word that just means tenth, and this goes back to, we have references to this in Mesopotamia. We even have the use of this word all the way back in the Ugaritic literature from- Oh, wow ... between 1500 and 1200 BCE. So it goes back pretty far. But it's found in a lot of different contexts. And it seems to be pretty flexible. It can be used to refer to basically any kind of 10% tax that might be imposed on a group, and that tax can take a lot of different forms. But it seems originally to have something to do with a kind of a royal tax. The earliest, if we take the Pentateuch as historical, which you shouldn't, but if you do, the earliest reference that we have to this is going to be with Abraham.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan So we've talked about Abraham and Melchizedek, king of Sodom, where the kings have absconded with a bunch of people and a bunch of goods, and Abraham goes after them and gets back the goods, and it says he paid Melchizedek, king of Sodom, a tenth of everything. And this has to do with enslaved people, money, any money that would've been among the stolen goods, as well as animals, livestock, grain, stuff like that- Right ... depending on what was stolen. And you do have references to this being a tax on any kind of property. Now, once you get into the actual legislation that requires tithing in the Hebrew Bible, there are three different books where we find references to tithing. Leviticus, primarily in chapter 27, we have a prescription of a tithe. Deuteronomy chapters 12 and 14 talk about tithe, and then we also have the idea of a tithe in Numbers 18. And they're all a little different- Okay ... because they all have to do with different payees. And some scholars have pointed out that there seems to be a trajectory here, that it starts off being a tax, a temple tax basically, that goes to the priests and the temple. There are folks who think the holiness code in Leviticus is probably the earliest legislation related to the tithe, and it's supposed to support the temple and all the priests. Then you go into the Book of Numbers, and there you have the priestly layer, and here it seems to be for the Levites in particular, not just for- And remind us who those are. The Levites would be a priestly family or lineage.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And so it was a particular line within the priesthood. And then when you get to Deuteronomy, it seems to be something that you didn't pay the tithe to others. You gathered the tithe, and then you went to the temple, and you ate the tithe at the temple.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So it was something that you were actually consuming yourself, and anything else would go towards supporting the laity or the people around you. And so it seems that the tithe is something that is being allocated to different groups in different time periods based on the particular literary layer. And interestingly, and also there are some where it says you do the tithe on the third year or the sixth year.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan It's not an every year kind of thing.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And once we get into later rabbinic literature, in order to try to harmonize what's going on, they seem to stack some of these tithes. And so there's a way to read this literature that actually requires people pay up to 30% of whatever.

Dan Beecher Oh, because you've got to do your one year and your six year and your whatever year tithe.

Dan McClellan Yeah. You've got to do multiple different tithes. And most scholars are like, "Yeah, that didn't happen." But there's also an interesting reference to the redemption of your tithe. Because the tithe here, it doesn't really talk about money, and most of the prescriptions about the tithe, you have tithe on livestock, you have tithe on different kinds of agricultural products, primarily new wine and olive oil and stuff like that. And then there's this option to redeem it, which means you pay money instead of the tithe.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And in one of the literary layers, it says, "Yeah, you can redeem it, but then you've got to pay one-fifth more."

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan So if you're like, "Look, I want my wine. Why don't you just take this money instead?" They're like, "Fine, but another 20%."

Dan Beecher Interesting.

Dan McClellan And then in one of the other literary layers, it's like, "Yeah, just go ahead and redeem it," and there's no 20% charge. So it looks like the tithe could take the shape of actual money. But fundamentally, it was supposed to be on goods, grain, agricultural products, livestock, things like that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. I've got the Deuteronomy... What is this? This is Deuteronomy 14.

Dan McClellan 14:23?

Dan Beecher 22 and yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So it says, so 22 and 23, it says, "Set apart a tithe of all the yield of your seed that is brought in yearly from the field." So there's that yearly "And then in the presence of the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose as a dwelling for his name, you shall..." And I didn't catch this until you just said it. "You shall eat the tithe of your grain, your wine, and your oil, as well as the firstlings of your herd and flock, so that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always."

Dan McClellan Wow.

Dan Beecher So, yeah, that's confusing. You're bringing it in, but then it's like you're eating it.

Dan McClellan Is that- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher what I'm to understand?

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So it's- That's a lot less onerous.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I'm fine with that.

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's a BYO situation.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Where you just got to show up at the party, with your own grains and livestock and stuff.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And a lot of people think that this is being written later in a time when... Because initially, the idea that it goes to the sanctuary or to the priest might have been taking place. It might have been a vestige of a pre-exilic situation where you had multiple temples.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And you had all kinds of priesthoods, and they needed support. And so you would go to your local shrine, and you would offer the tithes. But then, by the time of the Deuteronomist and particularly the later Deuteronomist layers, it's all been concentrated. It's been centralized. It's just the temple at Jerusalem, and the priesthood there, and at that point, they didn't really need the help.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And so it's like, "Yeah, come bring the tithes and then eat the tithes, and then leave us alone."

Dan Beecher "Have a potluck.

Dan McClellan It's going to be fun."

Dan Beecher Yeah. "We'll have a good time."

Dan McClellan Yeah. So, you are invited to the cookout.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So yeah, there's not really a way to harmonize everything. Very clearly what we've got is different takes from different times and situations on how to implement this 10% something tax. And so then we get into Greco-Roman period Judaism, and we get down into the New Testament, and we don't have a bunch of references to the New Testament, but we do have a pretty interesting one in Matthew chapter 23.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Where we have, and let me pull up the text so I can read it.

Dan Beecher 23:23.

Dan McClellan And here we have Jesus talking to the Jewish folks. He says, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice, and mercy, and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others." And so it's an interesting verse because it's kind of hierarchizing the law.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's saying, "You're doing this one thing," and Jesus explicitly says, "Keep doing that."

Dan Beecher Keep doing it.

Dan McClellan "That's good."

Dan Beecher Yeah. But you're neglecting- We need that dill.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You can't neglect the dill, but- Yeah.

Dan McClellan We can't get our Mexican seasoning, our taco seasoning without that cumin.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But then says, "You've neglected the weightier matters of the law." And this gets into the prophetic critique that we've talked about before, where it's saying, "Hey, you're performing the outward praying on the street corner to be seen of other people, but you're neglecting the part where you're not supposed to grind the faces of the poor."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And this is interesting because, those Christians who say, "Oh, we're not supposed to tithe," Matthew certainly seemed to think that Jesus wanted everybody to continue to tithe. Most of the Christians who say, "We're not under that anymore," are going to point out, "Oh, this is part of the law. The law is done away with." And it depends on what rationalization Christians have for what parts of the law are done away with and what parts are not. Because some folks will say, "If Jesus mentioned it, then that re-ups the requirement." In other words- Right ... everything goes away except for whatever law Jesus said you're still required to follow. So if you take that approach, then Jesus says, "Hey, you're still supposed to tithe." And so there are a lot of folks who, particularly leaders of churches, who will point to that and say, "So you're still supposed to tithe." But then there are others who will point to Paul in Romans and Galatians and elsewhere and say, "Paul says we're not under the law anymore, so the tithe is a part of that, so we don't have to do that anymore." So, you've got a choice because everybody's got to negotiate with this. And so the question then becomes, Jesus seems to recognize that this tithe is still related to produce, goods, not necessarily money. And so does that mean that people who tithe today are just supposed to like, "Here are some tomatoes from my garden. That's the only thing I'm growing right now. Here's a chicken. I got 10 chickens, you get one of them."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan If it's just livestock and grain and stuff, it's not a tall order for most folks, but- Right ... if it translates into monetary income, which it didn't seem to in the earliest periods when most everybody was sustaining themselves on whatever they could grow, then that makes things pretty easy. But these days, most people get an income- Right ... a monetary income, and so is that translatable? Well, that's debatable. That's another thing that you've got to negotiate.

Dan Beecher Yeah. As I was reading through all of this, it kept saying things like, "Bring food to the storehouse."

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And so I was thinking about it in terms of what would the modern-day equivalent be? Because almost nobody feeds themselves by growing their own food and raising their own livestock and whatever. And I'm sitting here imagining, if I were trying to be honest about replicating that, would I just say 10% of my food budget? You know what I mean? If I have a yearly food budget- Yeah ... throw 10% of that to the church?

Dan McClellan I don't know.

Dan Beecher It seems closer to the mark.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And when you consider the way the tithe changed throughout the Hebrew Bible, it's like once we get to Deuteronomy, it's like the priests don't really need it as much, but we're still going to require you bring it to the temple.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan We're just going to say, "Hey, eat it. Right there." And so it's still applicable. And so that's something that people have got to negotiate.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And unrealized capital gains.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Tithable, non-tithable. Because it's like, "Hey, I just borrowed a bunch of money to start up a business using my unrealized capital gains as my collateral."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "So I'm making money off of them."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Doesn't that mean they should be tithable?

Dan Beecher I think Warren Buffett and Jeff Bezos would rail against this.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You're ruining everything here.

Dan McClellan You've entirely missed the spirit of the law- Yeah ... in Leviticus 27. But it does point out, it raises the arbitrariness of a lot of what's going on here. And yeah, it makes you wonder what is the rationalization for it? And within most Christian communities today, it's clear. The people who are running the church need a livelihood, too.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And the church needs money to keep the lights on and stuff like that. So, there are those who would point out that when you look at the New Testament, there does not seem to be a concern for compulsory money giving, and we're going to talk about that a little bit later, but a lot of people say it's entirely voluntary. You give whatever you want.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And nobody's required to give. But then there are ways that they guilt you, and there are ways that they pressure you- Oh, yeah ... in certain groups.

Dan Beecher I came across many different things on the internet that were like, "God commands you to do this, and it shows your love for God," and all.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm. And it is just a bunch of guilt trips.

Dan Beecher And then I stumble on other things that basically say, there's not one passage of scripture telling anyone to give 10% of their money to a religious institution. And that was an interesting thing. When I read that, I was like, "Wow, that is a new take- ... that I think guys like Joel Osteen would not like anyone to be reading."

Dan McClellan Yeah. And the rhetoric there is usually, and this gets into Malachi 3. You've robbed God, and what have we robbed God? In your tithes and offerings, bring all the tithes into the storehouse and see if I will not open up the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing so much that you can't even bear it. And so a lot of prosperity gospel folks will try to convince people that paying tithing, some people call it your flood insurance. Some people call it your fire insurance. But that this is how you gain blessings. And there are ludicrous examples of prosperity preachers getting up there saying they need a new plane.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so God wants you to scratch a check- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher to me.

Dan McClellan I'm thinking of "The Jerk." When the guy comes in to ask for money, and he's like, "When I took my friends to the Super Bowl on my private plane, the leather was cracked on the seats, and I had to put towels down on the seats." And he's like, "Not towels." That's what I think of when I think of the prosperity gospel preachers.

Dan Beecher But- When you think about the prosperity gospel, the pitch is almost always, you pay the church however much, and it's never just 10%. That seems to be the floor, right?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then it's like, and go up from there, and the more you give me, the more blessings will pour down on you.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Your wealth will be increased tenfold, or blah blah blah. And when you look at it, the wealth of the congregation never seems to be going up, but the wealth of one person in the room always seems to be going up a lot.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Absolutely.

Dan McClellan And the idea is that scratching that check or handing over that money is a way to signal- your sacrifice and your faithfulness to God, so that God will then more greatly bless you.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And the reality is that's something that's not really quantifiable or observable, but the person on the other end is certainly appreciating. They can quantify- Yeah ... what you're doing, so.

Dan Beecher And then not pay any taxes on it, so that's cute.

Dan McClellan Ah, yeah.

Dan Beecher Just like that unrealized capital gain. So, I guess the question here for this segment is, what is the modern equivalent? Or what should a modern Christian or a modern Jew, how should they be thinking of their giving, and their giving to their church or their giving to... Because I also think that there's a question of, there's the tithe and then there's offerings, right? Somehow there's a difference in that. And most churches have very set ideas about how to think about this stuff.

Dan McClellan But- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher is there a way to distill down a biblical idea of this? Or is it just, like you say, it's different in Numbers and Deuteronomy, and Leviticus. So, how can you distill that down? The common denominator is in the name, a tenth.

Dan McClellan Okay. That's really the most consistent thing you can extract from all of this. Whether it's applicable to what is it applicable to, what does it go, all of that is debatable. That's up for negotiation. And so yeah, in terms of what should a Christian or a Jewish person do, that's not my place to say.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But, I think people ought to be aware of just how much variability there is.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And ought to be aware of these data so that if they are in a position where they're trying to figure this out, they can make a data-based decision. They can make a decision based on information, because far too many folks are making decisions based on either authority that is being lorded over them, or based on the siren call of the prosperity preacher who is going to tell you that they're going to rain down them blessings upon you. Even though Malachi 3 is a threat. It's God saying, "Hey, this famine and this drought and everything, and the social unrest and upheaval, it's because you're not paying your tithe." And so when it talks about the windows of Heaven and the blessings, literally it's referring to rain.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow. God is saying, "Pay me my money- ...

Dan McClellan and you'll get rain, and that way- Yeah ... you'll be able to grow more crops and- Grow more crops and- ... raise more livestock ...

Dan Beecher pay me my more money."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I remember my grandpa used to have a thing where driving to church, if he hit a lot of red lights, he would turn around in the car and say, "Who didn't pay their tithing?" So maybe that's it. Is that what Malachi was referring to- ... was slow drives?

Dan McClellan I don't know what kind of traffic light situation was going on in ancient Judah.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But- ... I recall the traffic lights being pretty quick in modern Israel and Palestine, although there were other kinds of things that could slow things down. Mainly traffic.

Dan Beecher But- Mm-hmm ...

Dan McClellan yeah, I think there is translation that has to take place.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan There is negotiation that has to take place. There's no way that you can transfer wholesale the principle of tithing into the modern world without making decisions and without having preferences.

Dan Beecher And so, I think- I know that this isn't how you were using the word negotiation, but I do kind of love the idea of joining a church and then just sort of sitting down with the pastor or the priest or whatever and saying, "Okay, let's get down to brass tacks here. I'm not going to give you the full 10." "What's the wiggle room on this?"

Dan McClellan Yeah. It's just the Pawn Star guys coming.

Dan Beecher Yeah, man.

Dan McClellan "Best I can do is seven."

Dan Beecher I think we've discovered a new tactic, a new church tactic.

Dan McClellan Well, it reminds me of Godfather. Is it the second or the third one where he's negotiating with the father- ... about the money that they're going to give to the... I think that might be the third one.

Dan Beecher But yeah. There you go.

Dan McClellan That would be an interesting way to go about joining the church.

Dan Beecher It's a new approach. It's a new approach.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Play this episode for them if they balk- ... and we'll go from there.

Dan McClellan Oh, man.

Dan Beecher All right. Well, let's get deeper into the money thing and dive into our chapter and verse. In this week's chapter and verse- All right ... we're looking at Acts. Yeah, we're start- Are we starting in 4?

Dan McClellan Yeah, we're starting in 4:32.

Dan Beecher Okay. And we're going to go to chapter 5, I think verse 11.

Dan McClellan Yeah, verse 11. So we don't have to read every word of this, but basically, chapter 4 is introducing this concept of a brand of communalism. Says, "Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common." With great power, the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses, sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. And then they give two examples. The first example is the good example, a dude named Barnabas. He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet. And then we've got the antithesis, the bad example, and it's a couple, a man named Ananias and his wife, Sa-something-ara.

Dan Beecher Probably- Sapphira, we're going to say.

Dan McClellan Sapphira. Yeah, I'm just joking.

Dan Beecher We're going to go with Sapphira. We're going to go with Sapphira.

Dan McClellan Sold a piece of property, and the two of them conspired to keep back some of the proceeds. And so what they laid at the apostles' feet was only, let's say, 90%. Let's be generous.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan They held back their tithe.

Dan Beecher They kept a finder's fee.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And they bring it to the apostles, and then Peter is able to tell that something is going on here.

Dan Beecher Peter, who definitely has got spies in all of the places.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher He's got a login to the MLS website. He knows how much everything's sold for.

Dan McClellan He says, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?" And for readers of the Hebrew Bible, there's an echo here, because there's a story in Joshua 7 about a dude named Achan, or Achan, A-C-H-A-N. And what happened there was there was a raid. They destroyed a town. They kept all the goods. They were supposed to commit them to destruction.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan Herem is the devoted to destruction requirement. But Achan decided he was going to keep some for himself. And what ends- As you would.

Dan Beecher Yeah. You want to keep a little bit of it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That's natural.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Little for you, little for me. And this five-finger discount does not go unnoticed by the Lord, who then there's this famous story about lining up everybody by families, and clans, and tribes, and everything, and then they whittle it down to Achan's family. And he goes, "Yep. Yeah, I kept the stuff." And they kill him and his family.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So there are echoes of this, and some of the language is the same, too. The ancient Greek translation of this story from Judges, or Joshua, excuse me, some of the Greek there is used in this story. So Peter accuses Ananias of this and says, "You did not lie to us, but to God." And so here's where somebody who's being told they should scratch a check so the pastor can- ... bring his friends to the Super Bowl on good private airplane seats are thinking, "Okay, I can't be stingy. I've got to give everything that I can."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "So you did not lie to us, but to God." Now, when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died.

Dan Beecher Oh, wow.

Dan McClellan Yeah. We're using some no- That's extreme.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And it's using some no-fault language here. It's not saying how exactly he died. There are scholars who would say, "Hey, Peter might have pulled out his sword," which was his wont from time to time if the gospels are- Peter, grumpy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So some people argue that the apostles might have put him to death.

Dan Beecher Wow.

Dan McClellan But the text just says he fell down and died, and great fear seized all who heard of it.

Dan Beecher And so- Which it would in that case.

Dan McClellan Yeah, you would think. That would be a weird thing to see happen.

Dan Beecher I think fear is a reasonable response to that particular moment, for sure.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And then young men came and wrapped up his body, and they carried him out to bury him. About three hours later, his wife comes in saying, "Has anybody seen my husband? He didn't come back." Not knowing what happened. And Peter said to her, "Hey, tell me whether you and your husband sold the land for such and such a price." And she said, "Yeah. That was the price." And then he accuses her of the same thing. "You have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test. Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Which is kind of ominous.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. That's pretty scary.

Dan McClellan Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in, they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things.

Dan Beecher So- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan yeah. And there's an interesting question that has been asked of this story is, okay, so everybody was of one heart and one mind. Does that mean they were required to-- Were they compelled? Were they forced to- Right ... sell everything they owned? And the story makes it sound like they just did it because they were all of one heart and one mind. So technically, no, they weren't required, but anyone who objected probably would have been said to have been not part of the one heart and one mind.

Dan Beecher And so- And if you just reverse the order of those paragraphs so that the one heart and one mind, everyone's doing it, comes after the story of Ananias and Sapphira- Mm-hmm ... it starts to feel a lot like it was compelled.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I'm just going to say, it really matters in what order you tell the story.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And because there are a lot of folks who would look at this and say, "Well, why aren't we doing this today?" And then there are the people who are like, "Whoa. They never said they were required to do it."

Dan Beecher Right. And so- But it does seem like that's an important question to ask, right? Because if this is set up as kind of the correct way to be, if everyone is doing their good Christian best, it seems like this is set up as the preferred economic model.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Am I wrong about that, or does that seem like a fair assessment?

Dan McClellan There are an awful lot of people who think this is how it was supposed to be, and so during restorationist movements, particularly in the 19th century, there were an awful lot of folks who set up co-ops and things like that- Yeah ... based on this idea. In fact, I was born into a commune- Oh, wow ... in West Virginia that was based on this idea that they had all things in common. And so that kind of interpretation of this passage is still ongoing. Now, there's a lot of baggage with contemporary ideas about communalism, too.

Dan Beecher Yes, indeed.

Dan McClellan And so history has left its fingerprints on these frameworks and these models. And even within the LDS tradition, you can go back to the 1930s, and you can find priesthood manuals that are like, "Yeah, we should increase taxes so that the wealthy can pay more money, and that way the people who don't have as much can have healthcare, and they can have education, and they can have all the things that they want." And then Red Scare happens, and now we have John Birch Society leadership that are still scattered around.

Dan Beecher So- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan even within the LDS tradition, it all depends on the interpretive lenses and the experiences you're bringing to this.

Dan Beecher Well, you go back far enough, and the LDS were trying to do- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan communitarianism. Or there's a story of a place called Orderville that was supposed to be basically that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. The church owned everything, and then everybody got as per their need.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The United Order- Yep ... which didn't work out in the long run and had to be replaced to some degree with this law of consecration, which is basically unrealized law of consecration.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But yeah, it's- It turns out that the Ananias's and Sapphiras's of the world are plentiful.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And you're never going to make your commune happen without them.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher The selfish ones will appear.

Dan McClellan And oddly enough, God doesn't seem to strike them down.

Dan Beecher No. They never seem to just fall down and die- Yeah ... out of either shame or Peter pulling a gun.

Dan McClellan I think this demonstrates one of the ways that this story is intended to function. It's intended to function as this is what is going to happen because God is watching. God is going to punish you. And in my book, "Adonai's Divine Images," I talk quite a bit about how deity concepts develop out of this need to have some kind of watcher, some kind of way to monitor social behavior and pro-social behavior so that free riding can be punished- Mm ... to discourage it and to disincentivize it. And a story like this is an example of a way to try to do that, to show that God is watching and will punish those who try to free ride. Of course, in real life, that kind of thing doesn't happen. So you've got to tell stories to scare people. Unfortunately, what usually ends up happening is the only people who get scared by these stories are children.

Dan Beecher Yes. That's true.

Dan McClellan These stories get shared in order to hammer these ideas into the psyches of children so that they grow up with trauma.

Dan Beecher And then- And it turns out also that the only people who are really free riding, freeloading, whatever, are the mega wealthy of our society. Those are the ones who just have it easy and never have to do anything.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And the rest of us can often use a little bit of help. It does seem like one of the takeaways of all of this-- I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong about this because when I was reading about, and I'm going to go back to the tithing thing. When I was reading about the tithing thing- Mm-hmm ... I kept seeing the storehouse. Bring your grains, your food to the storehouse.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Maybe I'm wrong about this. You can clarify this. Was that just for the use and pleasure of the priests in the temple, or was that given to the poor or whatever? Do we have any idea about that?

Dan McClellan I think it was probably some kind of combination of the two, because certainly there would've been a time where the temple would've reached out and tried to aid the poor, and there would've been other times when that was less so.

Dan Beecher And- That makes sense to me. These are the cycles of humanity, right?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You get administrations of anything that are more generous and then less generous, and then more and then less, and that's just sort of how humans are.

Dan McClellan And I think the temple also in ancient Israel shifted some because there was certainly a time in the earliest periods the temple was probably subordinate to the palace.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And then there was probably a time when there was a disconnect, and particularly when they went into exile and no longer had the autonomy- Right ... to have a palace. And then when they came back and they were under the hegemony of Persia and things like that, the priesthood probably had a little bit more of their own autonomy. And so the relationship between palace and temple was also shifting. And so, the temple on its own probably would've been like, "Hey, not my job to do all this stuff." Whereas if the palace is more in control, maybe they want to hand out bread and water and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think it depends on a lot of the personalities that are involved and- Yeah ... the social structures. And this raises the objection that a lot of people today have of the notion that the poor should be taken care of. And I'm sure you've heard this in discussions about taxation where they, one, it's the compulsion.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan If it's compulsory, then it's not of God, which, going back to what's going on in Acts, it sounds pretty compulsory.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Because they're saying, "Hey, we're all of one heart and mind about this. We're all doing it." So, I think of pieces of flair.

Dan Beecher It's like- Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah ... that's the minimum, but we'd love to see you do more.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan It's like, we'll just raise the minimum. Ah, no. We can't do that.

Dan Beecher Yeah. You're not getting into the spirit of this at all.

Dan McClellan Right. So, you can use that sense of belonging as pressure.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Which makes clear, you're going to need to do this. And then the other objection is always, well, it can't be a government framework. It has to be the church doing it, which is a... Well, I suppose it's a discussion for another day to some degree.

Dan Beecher I suppose so, though, when you think about it in terms of if you're using ancient Judah as your model- Mm-hmm ... sure that works when everybody agrees on what the religion is, or if you're looking at early Christianity and you're looking at Peter and Ananias and Sapphira's time and whatever, you've got a small group of people who all agree on the same thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But that doesn't work under modern structures where not everybody has that group. You know what I mean? Everybody in Judah was supposed to believe the same things- Mm-hmm ... and therefore, they all agreed to what was... Basically, the church could levy a tax, right? The religion could levy the tax.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. So it's- They were like the palace and the temple when they are combined, the government is the church- Right ... to use contemporary terms. And so there was no entity beyond the church. We have such an entity today, and so again, as with the concept of tithing, translation has to take place.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan There's a negotiation that has to take place, and what I think I see in an awful lot of folks is the negotiations always seem to go the way of whatever keeps the most money in my pocket.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And I think when you're talking about justice in the prophetic critique sense of the word, the sense that is used by Jesus in the gospels, the sense that is used by Micah and Isaiah and Amos and the others, to neglect the weightier matters of the law just to serve your own interests is a violation. But for an awful lot of people, they don't care.

Dan Beecher So, yeah, and I think part of the deal that has always irked me, and I'm looking at Matthew 19, verse 21, Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go and sell what you possess and give it to the poor- Right ... and you will have treasure in heaven." I think the problem with the idea of tithing is that people give 10% of their income to their church, and then they feel that their obligation is done.

Dan McClellan Has been met.

Dan Beecher Yeah. And they feel like there's no more, they don't have to do anything more charitable. And I personally have a feeling, my feeling is that tithing to a church is membership dues. It's not charity. I don't feel that that's what charity is.

Dan McClellan So when people...

Dan Beecher I see statistics that talk about who gives the most to charity, and if you include- ...

Dan McClellan tithing- Yeah ...

Dan Beecher it's going to be the religious people, but that's not actually charitable giving.

Dan McClellan Yeah. That's paying salaries and keeping the lights on in church buildings.

Dan Beecher Right. And I don't object to that, but it's not the same as doing charity. And when Jesus said so many times, "Take care of the people," I tend to think, and I just think people are not reliable in terms of we need organizations to take care of our poor and our- Yeah ...

Dan McClellan hungry and our unhoused and- And churches can't do it on their own. They're trying- No.

Dan Beecher No ...

Dan McClellan and they don't even do a fraction of a percent of the spending that is required every year.

Dan Beecher Right. And the thing is that the places in the world that do the best at this are the ones that ... entirely cede it to government agencies that will take care of people and re-enfranchise them into society and all this other stuff.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I think the stinginess of people is very weird. It's understandable. I get it. We're all kind of stingy. We all like money and want to have as much of it as we can have.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher But it does seem to me like it's not enough to pay your tithes. I guess that's what I'm getting at is, in 1 John 3 it says, "But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?" I think if you want to show your Christianity, it's not by doing the tithing thing. It's by opening your heart in other bigger, broader ways.